PSE Centra and Universal Bow Questions


From: Keith Barlow <kbarlow@why.net>
Subject: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?
Date: 12 Dec 1995 18:19:38 GMT

1) what is the difference in these two bows other than one will accept
  another manufactures limbs? Is it the risers?
2) what are the pros and cons of carbon vs. wood laminated limbs? Is
  one more durable,reliable,accurate,etc...than the other?
3) If I were to shoot one of these bows: say a 70",35# @ 32" draw,
  shooting fingers---what kind of carbon arrow(size,brand,tip,etc..)
  would I use?
4) and any other input I can get would be appreciated.

           Thanks in Advance,
                         Keith 

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From: Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 20:16:07 GMT

In a previous article Keith Barlow <kbarlow@why.net> wrote:

> 1) what is the difference in these two bows other than one will accept
>   another manufactures limbs? Is it the risers?

      I just received the PSE 1996 catalogue today and from what I see, 
both the bows use the same kind of limb pockets, ie. they can both use 
limbs with the Hoyt GM design.  So, both the bows will be able to accept 
limbs from other manufacturers such as Hoyt and Border.

      The catalogue also claimed that the Universal riser is the most
economically priced machined handle in the market.  I haven't seen the
price for these risers yet and so will assume that it is a cheaper 
option to the Centra.(Just like when Stylist produced the "Star" risers)

> 2) what are the pros and cons of carbon vs. wood laminated limbs? Is
>   one more durable,reliable,accurate,etc...than the other?

      I have heard lots of different remarks on this question.  Hoyt 
claimed that their Carbon foam limbs will not be affected by humidity,
heat, etc.  I guess carbon limbs will be less affected by the horrible
weather that we normally get during outdoor competitions.

      A friend of mine once changed her trusted wood laminated for a 
pair of carbon limbs (Marksman Portland 2000) and didn't see the point
in investing the money.  Her sightmark improved slightly but not as much
as when she changed to carbon arrows that cost a fraction of the price.

      Cons:  Got to be the price!!!

> 3) If I were to shoot one of these bows: say a 70",35# @ 32" draw,
>   shooting fingers---what kind of carbon arrow(size,brand,tip,etc..)
>   would I use?

      You will have to refer to one of the arrow manufacturer's chart.
Or you could try using the "Easton Arrow Flight Simulator" to get the
best arrows for your set.  Draw back is that you are only suggested 
Easton arrows, naturally.

      I take it that your bow is 35# at 28" draw.  So, your calculated
draw weight will be about 43# - 45#.  What carbon arrows that you want 
to use will depend on you.  I heard lots of problem with the points on
the Easton A/C/C arrows.  Personally, I only used it for 2 months and 
did not encounter any problems.  But I would go straight to the A/C/Es
if you ever going to spend a lot of money on carbon/aluminium arrows.

      Beman makes a good range of carbon arrows.  You really have to 
experiment and see what arrows suit you best.  Try your local pro shop.
They may have several carbon arrows lying around that you could possibly 
test.

> 4) and any other input I can get would be appreciated.

      Try before you buy.  I know a number of people (including me) who
bought their bow for its look.  This is not something you should do. 
I do like the feel of my bow though, don't get me wrong.  And if you are
going to get the Centra, I found it impossible to shoot without a 
stabiliser.  Due to the center-of-line design, the bow will fall 
backwards upon release.  When you try it in the shop, put a stabiliser
on.  The best clicker for this bow is the Cavalier Magnetic clicker.  
I've tried several standard clickers before but not for this bow!  The 
double button hole is great for putting a magnetic clicker or one of
the fancy one.  You will need one as it is really deep cut riser.
 
>            Thanks in Advance,

       Hope it helps Keith.  If you got any question on how I feel 
about the Centra on the shooting line or any related questions on
accessories, etc., you can E-Mail me.


M.Wazir Choong  

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From: jagj@rhyolite.win-uk.net (John  Jones)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:06:35 GMT
Subject: Re: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?

 
In article <818799367.912@wazland.demon.co.uk>, Wazir Choong
(wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk) writes:

>      Try before you buy.  I know a number of people (including me) who
>bought their bow for its look.  This is not something you should do. 
>I do like the feel of my bow though, don't get me wrong.  And if you are
>going to get the Centra, I found it impossible to shoot without a 
>stabiliser.  Due to the center-of-line design, the bow will fall 
>backwards upon release.  When you try it in the shop, put a stabiliser
>on.  The best clicker for this bow is the Cavalier Magnetic clicker.  
>I've tried several standard clickers before but not for this bow!  The 
>double button hole is great for putting a magnetic clicker or one of
>the fancy one.  You will need one as it is really deep cut riser.
> 

Agreed - I bought my Centra because (after a couple of hours
shooting!) it grouped better than a Radian (for me).  To
follow up a point above, *DO NOT* use the old type of
clicker on a Centra.  The only ones which work are the
magnetic type -  I use a Cavalier one.



John Jones                     

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From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson)
Subject: Re: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?
Date: 13 Dec 1995 10:35:40 GMT

Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk> writes:

>In a previous article Keith Barlow <kbarlow@why.net> wrote:

>      The catalogue also claimed that the Universal riser is the most
>economically priced machined handle in the market.  I haven't seen the
>price for these risers yet and so will assume that it is a cheaper 
>option to the Centra.(Just like when Stylist produced the "Star" risers)

The Stylist Star is made from HE30 alloy (as opposed to HE15). This led
to initial price differences of 50 pounds. Now however the difference in
price is about 25 pounds since the alloy prices have reduced etc. Since
the alloy Stylist use in the Star is 5% stronger than that in the Centra
what is the Universal made from? Same as the Centra? In which case how
have they managed to cut costs so much?

Or is "the most economically priced machined handle in the market" an
exagerrated claim?
 
>> 2) what are the pros and cons of carbon vs. wood laminated limbs? Is
>>   one more durable,reliable,accurate,etc...than the other?

>      I have heard lots of different remarks on this question.  Hoyt 
>claimed that their Carbon foam limbs will not be affected by humidity,
>heat, etc.  I guess carbon limbs will be less affected by the horrible
>weather that we normally get during outdoor competitions.

>      A friend of mine once changed her trusted wood laminated for a 
>pair of carbon limbs (Marksman Portland 2000) and didn't see the point
>in investing the money.  Her sightmark improved slightly but not as much
>as when she changed to carbon arrows that cost a fraction of the price.

The Foam used in limb construction is a synthetic wood and is impervious
to heat and moisture changes. A wood limb too is impervious to moisture
changes as long as they are totaly sealed (a good reason for using a bow
stand!) 

If you don't believe that wood limbs are affected by heat find someone
with a pair of black wood limbs measure the draw weight when cold, then
on a nice hot sunny day measure it again, it won't be the same. In white
and silver limbs the same applies but the degree of heating is reduced
so it's not so extreme.

Depending on manufacturer Carbon limbs give you no speed increase to
quite a big speed increase (the latter being Hoyt 'cos there Glass limbs
are slow). What carbon limbs give you is increased torsional stability
in the limb. I won't go into details (for a change 8-) ) but it should
make the limb more stable to shoot and hence more forgiving.

Of course if the Carbon is badly laid into the limb it does nothing :-)

>> 3) If I were to shoot one of these bows: say a 70",35# @ 32" draw,
>>   shooting fingers---what kind of carbon arrow(size,brand,tip,etc..)
>>   would I use?

<Snip arrow selection>

Out of a modern target recurve you're looking at ACE 430 or 400
(100 grain/105 grain pts). I shoot practically the same size with 45# on
my fingers and use 400's. If I drop to 42# I can tune either arrow.
Below 42# and the 430 is better.

You may find you need anything from a 430 to a 370 (I doubt you'd use
less than a 430 tho'). Too much depends on you setup/shooting style/
actual draw weight etc.

>> 4) and any other input I can get would be appreciated.

>      Try before you buy. 

Ditto, absoloutely, definitely a must!!!!!! A bow must fit like a glove.

>going to get the Centra, I found it impossible to shoot without a 
>stabiliser.  Due to the center-of-line design, the bow will fall 
>backwards upon release.

Actually most modern target bows will shoot a bit rough without a
longrod becasue they're designed to be shot with one!

> When you try it in the shop, put a stabiliser
>on.  The best clicker for this bow is the Cavalier Magnetic clicker.  
>I've tried several standard clickers before but not for this bow!

Beiter make a clicker specifically for the sight window of the Centra.
 
>double button hole is great for putting a magnetic clicker or one of
>the fancy one.  You will need one as it is really deep cut riser.

Do you mean magnetic rest? I think so? If so get a Cavalier free flyte
or similar (the Spigarelli Magnetico is crap IMHO, I'd better qualify
that, some Magnetico's have far too much play in the arm, some are fine)

As always, only my humble mumblings,


John Dickson,(aka Stretch)

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From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson)
Subject: Re: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?
Date: 14 Dec 1995 11:27:24 GMT

jagj@rhyolite.win-uk.net (John  Jones) writes:

>Agreed - I bought my Centra because (after a couple of hours
>shooting!) it grouped better than a Radian (for me).  To
>follow up a point above, *DO NOT* use the old type of
>clicker on a Centra.  The only ones which work are the
>magnetic type -  I use a Cavalier one.

I think you'll find that some manufacturers are producing bent clickers
to overcome this problem (particularly Werner Beiter).

Beiter were displaying clickers and pressure buttons specifically
designed for the Centra at the World Indoor back in March.

                        John

PS My advice to anyone is to buy a bow on feel. If it feels good it will
group (although it may need tuning). IMHO if you choose your bow on how
it groups from a couple of hours shooting you may be making an unfair
comparison based on the fact that one bow may be tuned when the other
isn't.

PPS I'm also aware that to choose one bow over the next you have to have
something (other than price to sway you) if they both feel good ;-)

--
John Dickson,(aka Stretch)
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From: Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:37:16 GMT

jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) wrote:
 
> I think you'll find that some manufacturers are producing bent clickers
> to overcome this problem (particularly Werner Beiter).
> 
> Beiter were displaying clickers and pressure buttons specifically
> designed for the Centra at the World Indoor back in March.

John, the problem I found with all these bent clickers is not the fit.
You can just get a standard clicker and bend them and they will fit!
By bending them, you are actually forcing the clicker to move about
1/4" more than a straight clicker to the left (for R/H).  With the 
Centra, with the button placed for the normal shooting style with all
the off centre to compensate the paradox of finger shooting, the poor
clicker is forced to move a lot.  The more you move it, the higher
the pressure it places on the arrow.  When it clicks, the arrow may 
spring outwards.  Not so much a problem with standard arrow rest, but
with the magnetic arrow rest, the arrow may fall off and when you 
release, ..... need I say more?

> PS My advice to anyone is to buy a bow on feel. If it feels good it will
> group (although it may need tuning). IMHO if you choose your bow on how
> it groups from a couple of hours shooting you may be making an unfair
> comparison based on the fact that one bow may be tuned when the other
> isn't.
> 
> PPS I'm also aware that to choose one bow over the next you have to have
> something (other than price to sway you) if they both feel good ;-)

Agree with this.  Some people have better grouping with one bow and not
the other.  Looks are quite important.  If you are going to shoot it 
couple of times a week for a few years, may as well have a handsome
bow to live with rather than an uuugggglllllyyyyy one.  (Don't quite
like the look of the PSE Universal)

 Wazir.

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From: Wazir Choong <archery@wazland.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:34:46 GMT

Just in case no one understood what I meant by the higher pressure
placed by curved clicker, here is a graphical explaination (if anyone
actually read all my previous crap that is):

                                 ||  |         The angle that the
                                |^|  |         clicker is forced to
                               |^ |  |         bend means a higher
                              |^  |  |         pressure is placed on
                             |^   |  |         the arrow.  Even with
                            |^    |  |         the weakest clicker 
                            ^\.   ^\.^\.  _    available this pressure
                              |  ___|  |_| |_  can be quite annoying.
           Pressure on the -->|O=___|  |_| |_| (spring effect)
              arrow                 |  | |_|
                             ._____/^./^  
                             |       |
                              \     /

                          With curved clicker
                      (eg. the new Beiter or PSE)


                                 ||  |         Less pressure placed
                                 ||  |         by clicker on arrow but
                                 ||  |         the thicker clicker plate
                                |^|  |         must be used.  Now, what
                                | |  |         is the point in having
                               |^ |  |         a deep cut riser is you
                               |  ^\.^\.  _    are going to use the 
                              |^ ___|  |_| |_  thicker plate?  It will
                              |O=___|  |_| |_| give same clearance as
                                    |  | |_|   a standard riser.  
                             ._____/^./^       Besides, the bow looks
                             |       |         nicer with the thin plate.
                              \     /
 
                          With straight clicker
                    (eg. most other clickers available)

     <<<<Excuse my drawing, it is not the easiest thing to do>>>>

     I am sure there are archers out there who are using standard 
clickers with their Centra (or one of the PSE deep riser compound).
You may not be having any problem with your current setup.  All I am
saying here is that by having a clicker that follows the shape of the
riser (ie. bent inwards), the clicker will have to move outwards a 
lot more compared with a straight clicker.  This in change will 
increase the pressure put on the arrow.  Just like when you bend a 
plastic ruler.  The more you bend it, the higher the pressure.

     When used with a magnetic rest (one that retracts into the riser),
even small movement will cause the rest to "drop".  When the clicker
.err.. "clicks", the arrow will move slightly due to the release of 
pressure.  From time the clicker "clicks" and release there may be 
about a quarter to half of a second for the arrow to move or even fall
off the rest.  For a consistent archer who shoots "as soon as" the
clicker goes off, it's not too obvious.  But for someone who waits for
even a fraction of a second, this may proof to be a problem or just a
pure annoyance.

     Don't quote me on anything.  The bent clicker may be better for 
you(?).  I am just writing based on my personal setup.  I am a crap 
archer myself.

Wazir.

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From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson)
Subject: Re: PSE UNIVERSAL and CENTRA BOW QUESTIONS?
Date: 15 Dec 1995 09:57:29 GMT

Wazir Choong <archery@wazland.demon.co.uk> writes:


>                                 ||  |         The angle that the
>                                |^|  |         clicker is forced to
>                               |^ |  |         bend means a higher
>                              |^  |  |         pressure is placed on
>                             |^   |  |         the arrow.  Even with
>                            |^    |  |         the weakest clicker 
>                            ^\.   ^\.^\.  _    available this pressure
>                              |  ___|  |_| |_  can be quite annoying.
>           Pressure on the -->|O=___|  |_| |_| (spring effect)
>              arrow                 |  | |_|
>                             ._____/^./^  
>                             |       |
>                              \     /

>                          With curved clicker
>                      (eg. the new Beiter or PSE)


I'm obviously missing something. I've seen the Beiter used on a few
handles seemingly without any plates (?!?) and it seemed OK (the guys
shooting them knew what they were doing!) but I believe you if you say
that the 0.2mm Beiter collapses the spring.

There is also a tendancy for this in any riser which has the clicker
bushing close to the rest (especially when using "heavy clickers").

>     When used with a magnetic rest (one that retracts into the riser),
>even small movement will cause the rest to "drop".  When the clicker
>.err.. "clicks", the arrow will move slightly due to the release of 
>pressure.  From time the clicker "clicks" and release there may be 
>about a quarter to half of a second for the arrow to move or even fall
>off the rest.  For a consistent archer who shoots "as soon as" the
>clicker goes off, it's not too obvious.  But for someone who waits for
>even a fraction of a second, this may proof to be a problem or just a
>pure annoyance.

If you're arrow is being propelled left (for a right hander) on the
instance of release it's going to cause havoc for any archer, not just
the inconsistent ones!

Sounds like PSE fluffed their design a bit tho' ?!? I must admit that I
only ever had a brief daliance with the PSE, I didn't really like the
balance so I guess I may well be missing something!

                               
John Dickson,(aka Stretch) 



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