Clickers

From: Lev  D Gelb 
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:45:46 -0500



On 19 Feb 1996, Simon Cooper wrote:

>  I was wondering if any of you had any insight or techniques
> on how to get through the clicker. I have only been shooting
> the recurve for about eight months now. In the beginning I was 
> able to pull through the clicker but recently I have developed
> a problem where I just freeze. I just can't seem to pull through
> without developing excessive tension in my bow arm and draw hand.
> I am drawing around 36 lbs. I have spent a lot of time shooting 
> at a blank target at close range and have done some exercises such
> as drawing beyond the clicker and holding to help develope the proper
> muscles. Still the problem exists and if anything seems to be getting worst.
> 
> Is there a proper technique for this? I don't know if your suppose to
> just keep increasing back tension or roll the shoulder. I realize that most
> of you shooters that have been at this awhile probably perform this
> without any conscious thought but if you can remember back to when you
> first started. Was there any secret or method you used?
> 
> Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
> 
>                            Simon Cooper
> 
Oooh, now there's a whole can of worms opened up!  The clicker is an
amazing thing; never has such a little springy bit of metal completely
crippled so many archers.  Your problem is a common one; as soon as
people put the clicker on the bow, their shooting rhythm goes all to hell.

The problem, basically, is this;  you are drawing back to your chin,
and then you _stop_.  Its really, really hard to _start_ again, 
while holding back the draw weight;  it doesn't really matter if the
bow is "light" for you, its still much harder.

(For instance, try doing lat-pulls or bench-presses by lifting/pulling
the weight 90% of the way, stopping, and then pulling the rest of the way.) 

Get a friend to watch you;  odds are that as you come into anchor, 
you'll actually relax a little bit and the point of the arrow will
move forward.  It is really hard to "turn it around" again, and keep
pulling back after this happens...

What you need to do is _not_ stop at almost-full-draw;  don't relax your
back muscles when you anchor.  Keep the arrow moving back (albeit
slowly) as you settle into anchor, and then shoot.  This way, you'll
be able to shoot with a consistent rhythm with the clicker, rather than
drawing, aiming, stopping, and straining to pull through.  Make the shot
feel like a single, fluid motion.

About the tense hands....  Basically, what you need to do to keep your
hands relaxed, is focus really hard on something else.  If you
start with your hands relaxed (pre-draw), then they will stay 
pretty much relaxed all the way throough, if you don't worry about them.
Of course, if you pay attention to them, and concentrate on them, 
they'll probably tense up and you'll muff the shot.  

On thing that I tried that seemed to work pretty well was to
try to let my hands go limp at the beginning of the draw, and then
check that they were still relaxed at about 1/2 draw (I draw slow.)
Then I ignore them;  there are important things to think about,
like pulling strongly and smoothly through the clicker, for instance.

Keep shooting at a blank target, but make sure that you don't 
_stop_ at full draw;  keep the arrow moving back, and shoot
with a consistent rhythm.  Then try it on a target.  (Which is harder,
because you have to aim as well, in the same amount of time...)


Good luck,

Lev Gelb

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perry Ratcliff 
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 06:44:04 PDT


The best way to get your shooting form back is to spend some time shooting
with your eyes closed.  Shoot a lot of arrows with your eyes closed.  You
will find that you can shoot excellent form this way without any conscious
effort and develop the muscle memory you require for good shooting with
your eyes open.

After your form is put back in shape, don't go back to shooting with your
eyes open right away.  Start alternating between eyes open/eyes closed for
every other shot.  You will be amazed at how different your shooting feels
between the two kinds of shooting at first.

When you are consistently shooting well with your eyes open up close, slowly
move back until you feel yourself tighten up.  When you feel yourself tighten
up, move closer until your form cleans up (you may have to return to eyes 
closed at this point for a while).  Stay in this mode a while until you can
comfortably move back without your form breaking down.

Hope this helps.

Good Shooting!

Perry

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson)
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: 21 Feb 1996 12:01:00 GMT

I'd agree with Lev 100%.

>(For instance, try doing lat-pulls or bench-presses by lifting/pulling
>the weight 90% of the way, stopping, and then pulling the rest of the way.) 

>Get a friend to watch you;  odds are that as you come into anchor, 
>you'll actually relax a little bit and the point of the arrow will
>move forward.  It is really hard to "turn it around" again, and keep
>pulling back after this happens...

You may find that employing a clicker like the Cavalier Magnetic may
improve the situation because you can't feel the point under the
clicker. The round arm and nearly zero pressure mean that you can't feel
the point.

Having said that I can't shoot these things for toffee, it would appear
I'm a feedback junkie ;-)

>What you need to do is _not_ stop at almost-full-draw;  don't relax your
>back muscles when you anchor.  Keep the arrow moving back (albeit
>slowly) as you settle into anchor, and then shoot.  This way, you'll
>be able to shoot with a consistent rhythm with the clicker, rather than
>drawing, aiming, stopping, and straining to pull through.  Make the shot
>feel like a single, fluid motion.

Definitely. Some coaches/manuals suggest that the draw should be the
same speed all the way through I find that unrealistic. I *try* to shoot
the way most Olympic style archers are trying to shoot as Lev describes.
Sebastien Flute, the current Olympic champion, was quick to point out
that it sometimes appears that the clicker stops on the point of his
arrow BUT he never stops pulling and increasing the pressure.

Yo may want to check that your clicker is in the right place! Many
archers shoot from the arrow drawn as far back as they can. Therefore
they put the clicker on and can't comfortably make it go becasue they
have nowhere left to go! The only way through is with a tug of the arm
or squeeze of the fingers (I know! I used to be in the latter category!)

>About the tense hands....  Basically, what you need to do to keep your
>hands relaxed, is focus really hard on something else. 



Agreed. Focus on something else. There are a pile of things to try.
Including "keep moving", "shoot strong", "follow through strong" to more
methodical things such as  "keep my back elbow moving all the time,
feeling the pressure". Different things work for different people.

I also found that my hand got very tense when I pulled my anchor into my
face to hard. You need positive contact with your face to be accurate,
however, you don't need to pull it in too tight.

Be careful with extra reference points eg little finger in adams apple.
These can act as a brace against the direction of pull so you pull and
pull against your drawing hand which you are holding at your anchor
point for grim death! Of course you don't get anywhere. Imoveable
object, unstoppable force scenario. (You don't need an extra reference
for this to occur it can happen anyway)

>Keep shooting at a blank target, but make sure that you don't 
>_stop_ at full draw;  keep the arrow moving back, and shoot
>with a consistent rhythm.  Then try it on a target.  (Which is harder,
>because you have to aim as well, in the same amount of time...)

I think as Lev was saying shoot at a blank bale until you get some sort
of consistency. Then shoot at the target, if you freeze, back to the
bale. You may want to try bits of tape, paper or pins as an intermediary
step before shooting the target, it intoduces the aiming but the
psycological pressure to hit is greatly reduced.

                Good luck, you'll need it ;-)

                        Stretch

--
John Dickson,(aka Stretch)   

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller)
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:08:31 GMT-2

John Dickson writes:

>I'd agree with Lev 100%.

I agree too, but would like to add something.

>I think as Lev was saying shoot at a blank bale until you get some sort
>of consistency. Then shoot at the target, if you freeze, back to the
>bale. You may want to try bits of tape, paper or pins as an intermediary
>step before shooting the target, it intoduces the aiming but the
>psycological pressure to hit is greatly reduced.

Stretch mentions aiming here, which also could be a cause for freezing in this 
case, as Steve mentioned he has been shooting eight months and is at a point 
where one could start expecting results from his archery. 

Because of these expectations one might start trying to aim too hard. You 
will want to have the pin exactly on the 'x' before releasing. This is 
impossible, so, the harder you try to aim, the longer you hold the bow, the 
tenser you get, the more you start shaking and your pin starts wandering 
around the target even more, etc. 

You could want to have your aim exact before you continue executing your shot. 
This usually causes you to stop moving and disrupts your rhythm as Lev pointed 
out.

Make sure you are concentrating on executing the shot, not aiming. Aiming is 
just a part of the shot. As long as your sight ring is in the gold, it's ok, 
keep moving, execute the shot as well as you can. It doesn't matter if it is 
still in the 9, if you would only shoot 9's on an outdoor FITA you'd still 
shoot 1296. 
If you find the dot in the middle of your sight ring disturbs you, you 
might consider using an open ring.

The above, as some of you will know, is from the 'american school', as told 
by Jay Barrs on one of his seminars. 

By the way, please note that you should be able to shoot consistently, in the 
way described in the previous postings, before you start worrying about your 
aiming. Form comes first.

All IMHO, :-)

Good shooting,


Marcelo Muller             

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lev  D Gelb 
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:25:50 -0500


I'd just like to add a few more thoughts on this topic,
some inspired by Stretch's comments.

> >What you need to do is _not_ stop at almost-full-draw;  don't relax your
> >back muscles when you anchor.  Keep the arrow moving back (albeit
> >slowly) as you settle into anchor, and then shoot.  This way, you'll
> >be able to shoot with a consistent rhythm with the clicker, rather than
> >drawing, aiming, stopping, and straining to pull through.  Make the shot
> >feel like a single, fluid motion.
> 
> Definitely. Some coaches/manuals suggest that the draw should be the
> same speed all the way through I find that unrealistic. I *try* to shoot
> the way most Olympic style archers are trying to shoot as Lev describes.
> Sebastien Flute, the current Olympic champion, was quick to point out
> that it sometimes appears that the clicker stops on the point of his
> arrow BUT he never stops pulling and increasing the pressure.
>

It is true; if you stand next to, say, one of the Korean archers, and
watch the tip of the arrow, it slows down drastically as they
anchor at full draw.  However, if you stand behind them and watch their
body move, you see that their drawing arm/elbow does _not_ stop, and
keeps gently moving back and around all through the shot.   In fact,
if you read the booklet that comes with a FormMaster device, or either of
Al Henderson's books, you'll find that this is a recurring topic - 
elbow keeps moving = strong shot.  If you relax at full draw, an
observer would see your elbow creep forward, and then as you start
pulling again, it moves back.

(Side note:  of course, everybody says that you should be relaxed
as possible when drawing, and I completely agree.  I'm referring to
"relaxing" as taking the weight across your shoulders, (where you
can hold the bow draw by wedging yourself into it) as opposed to
across your _back_, where you have to work to keep it drawn.)

This is a necessary ingredient to a good shot, but beware - if
you _just_ concentrate on pulling, and keeping your elbow moving,
your bow arm may tend to get dragged off to the side;  its important to
keep the pressure "balanced" - you _push_ the sightpin into the
target as hard as you _pull_ the arrow out of it. 
 
One last note - Unless your are phenomenally lucky, this will take
a long time to get right.  Like, you may never be really satisfied.
In any case, expect a few months dedicated practice before you
can shoot like this at a target with any degree of success.  But once,
you get it, it's really worth it, especially on windy days at long
distances (where strong, quick, and consistent shooting is your only
hope of not losing a lot of arrows...)

Lev Gelb

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ih201@cam.ac.uk (Ian Hawke)
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:27:18 +0000


In article <4gf1hs$ds5@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk
(John Dickson) wrote:

> I'd agree with Lev 100%.

Me too, but...

> You may find that employing a clicker like the Cavalier Magnetic may
> improve the situation because you can't feel the point under the
> clicker. The round arm and nearly zero pressure mean that you can't feel
> the point.

I wouldn't recommend them (which is strange, seieng as I shoot them). The
main problem is that there's just too much 'play' on the position, so
unless you pull straight back through every time (something which someone
new to a clicker may have problems with), then the clicker can _MOVE_ at
full draw. I think the one to go for is the Golden Key one (uses springs
instead of magnets, and is better built); Lev should know the exact
details.

> 
> Having said that I can't shoot these things for toffee, it would appear
> I'm a feedback junkie ;-)
> 

The reason I shoot one? I don't want to drill a bushing into my bow
(Border Victor)... isn't that silly.

Ian

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re:     Clickers 
Date:   22 Feb 1996 12:17:44 GMT 
From:   jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson)

ih201@cam.ac.uk (Ian Hawke) writes:

<SNIPO Cavalier Magnetic Clickers>

>I wouldn't recommend them (which is strange, seieng as I shoot them). The
>main problem is that there's just too much 'play' on the position, so
>unless you pull straight back through every time (something which someone
>new to a clicker may have problems with), then the clicker can _MOVE_ at
>full draw. I think the one to go for is the Golden Key one (uses springs
>instead of magnets, and is better built); Lev should know the exact
>details.

OK, so lets qualify it. If you want to try a Cavalier Magnetic Clicker
go to the pro-shop, open all of the clickers and buy the one with the
least play in the arm ;-)

These vary dramatically. I have one with less than 1mm play (which is
fine really)I have seen them with several mm play which isn't fine. My
girlfriend has one which has practically no play at all.

To be honest I'd rather not shoot a clicker which is dependent on a
spring (same reason I don't shoot a rest which is dependent on a spring)
springs can break and do tend to change their physical properties during
prolonged use. Magnets don't (they just fall out cos they haven't been
glued properly ;-) )

Unfortunately the Cavalier clicker is put together in a permanent way
(rivet) so you can't take it apart and reduce the play using washers or
shims very easily.

You could reduce play by getting some lead foil or tape and bulking out
the side of the slot which the clicker arm sits in (just be careful
where you put the glue ;-)

An archery toy is no toy if you can't take it apart, improve on the
design and put it together again!

                                Stretch
--
John Dickson,(aka Stretch) 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lev  D Gelb <ldg8@crux4.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:24:40 -0500



On 22 Feb 1996, John Dickson wrote:

(r.e. the Golden Key clicker)
> 
> To be honest I'd rather not shoot a clicker which is dependent on a
> spring (same reason I don't shoot a rest which is dependent on a spring)
> springs can break and do tend to change their physical properties during
> prolonged use. Magnets don't (they just fall out cos they haven't been
> glued properly ;-) )
> 
The device in question, John, is not (as far as I know) avaliable in
Britain yet - I was very impressed with the Golden Key design (the only
reason that I don't use one is that it didn't fit between the
Yamaha riser and the Olympic sight) - its based around a spring,
but one that you twist, rather than bend.  It's also very sturdy,
and very  adjustable (lots of set-screws; you'd like it...); you
can change the tension on the clicker, the position of the clicker, 
and the amount the thing moves when it goes off, without bending
the piece of wire (which is steel, rather than that nastly
brass stuff you get with the Cavalier.)
> 
> An archery toy is no toy if you can't take it apart, improve on the
> design and put it together again!
> 
Absolutely.  for instance, this weekend, I'm going to de-laminate
my carbon/ceramic  limbs, glue some bits of 
broken Diva's (22's work best) inside them
to make them stiffer, and then duct-tape them back together.  Not!

Good Shooting,

Lev

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bo575@torfree.net (Stan Siatkowski)
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:29:36 GMT


Simon Cooper (src@lady.kodak.com) wrote:
: I was wondering if any of you had any insight or techniques
: on how to get through the clicker. 
---cut--- 
: Is there a proper technique for this? I don't know if your suppose to
: just keep increasing back tension or roll the shoulder. 
---cut---
: I realize that most
: of you shooters that have been at this awhile probably perform this
: without any conscious thought but if you can remember back to when you
: first started. Was there any secret or method you used?

This is a very common problem among both new and experienced shooters, 
and there is no simple solution.

It's most important to know what the cause is, and it almost all cases it 
boils down to a fear of missing the target. You feel that if you pull 
just that little bit more, your sight might move off the target and you 
will miss, so your mind won't let your body move one part (your drawing 
muscles) for fear that your aiming might be moved.

The solution to the problem is simple to say, but difficult to do. You 
must convince yourself that you will NOT move the sight off the target if 
you pull through the clicker. The blank butt exercise is a good start. 
Nobody freezes on the clicker when there is no target to miss. (Well, 
some few cases do. If you're THAT bad, see a coach personally. The 
internet won't help you). After several thousand shots, try aiming on a 
really big target up close, where you CAN'T miss the center. Then, over a 
period of weeks and months, gradually reduce the size of the target and 
increase the distance, and if things go well, you will have trained your 
mind not to worry about missing. MOST IMPORTANT: Do not shoot in any 
competitions until you have mastered the clicker, because all of your 
previous effort will be wasted if you go back to freezing up in one 
session of shooting for score.

(Incidentally, clicker freezing is just one variation on the same 
problem. Clicker freezing, snap releasing, release punching, 
gold shyness, etc. are all caused by the same lack of confidence 
in your ability to hold on the target and release the string 
when YOU want to.)

That's just one of many, many techniques you might try. Just remember, 
it's all mental, a confidence thing. You KNOW it's not physical, because 
you can draw back the first 98% with no problem, and you can also draw 
back a longer arrow and still leave it only that tiny bit short. 
 
Incidentally, I know from personal experience what clicker freezing is 
like, and that this technique works. They used to call me "Micrometer 
Stan" because I could show anyone where the 27.995" point was on my 28" 
arrow. Just put a target face in front of me when I was shooting. 

Hope this advice helps. Stay confident. You WON'T miss if you just keep 
pulling! And even if you do, who gives a shit?  :-)

Stan Siatkowski

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: force10ten@aol.com (Force10Ten)
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: 26 Feb 1996 04:21:16 -0500

Lev wrote (BTW, Hi Lev !) regarding Cavalier's magnetic clicker...

>I was very impressed with the Golden Key design (the only
>reason that I don't use one is that it didn't fit between the
>Yamaha riser and the Olympic sight) - its based around a spring,
>but one that you twist, rather than bend.  It's also very sturdy,
>and very  adjustable (lots of set-screws; you'd like it...); you
>can change the tension on the clicker, the position of the clicker, 
>and the amount the thing moves when it goes off, without bending
>the piece of wire


The main design point of the Cavalier clicker is that as the clicker arm
moves away from the riser, the tension DECREASES which has a number of
positive benefits-

1)  If you shoot through the thing, you'll catch a 6 or a 7 at 70M instead
of a worm-burner.

2) If you use a light anount of cushion plunger tension and a lot of
spring tension on the clicker (which is pretty common on Yamahas, with
their short clicker-hole-rest-plane distance) you can get the arrow shaft
to spring away from the button when the clicker goes off.   This is BAD
KARMA, almost as bad as putting the little Bjorn bear upside down on your
target face !

Just my two pence...

George Tekmitchov

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson)
Subject: Re: Clickers 
Date: 26 Feb 1996 13:29:23 GMT 


force10ten@aol.com (Force10Ten) writes:

>1)  If you shoot through the thing, you'll catch a 6 or a 7 at 70M instead
>of a worm-burner.

Mmm, I wouldn't bet on it. If you shoot a good shot through the clicker
you get a 6 or 7. If you shoot a bad shot through it still wastes the
worm. (I witnessed a *good* archer proving this at 50m last year).



>   This is BAD
>KARMA, almost as bad as putting the little Bjorn bear upside down on your
>target face !

Bad Karma? I think it could be a *little* worse than that George.

If only I'd known about that Bjorn Bear sooner! I used to use him for
target practice when there were too many people in our range.... I guess
I've got years of Bad Karma coming to me now!

See there are *secrets* which they just don't tell you ;-)

                        Stretch (Feeling banal)
--
John Dickson,(aka Stretch)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson)
Subject: Re: Clickers
Date: 29 Feb 1996 10:41:40 GMT

Lev  D Gelb  writes:

>On 22 Feb 1996, John Dickson wrote:

>The device in question, John, is not (as far as I know) avaliable in
>Britain yet - I was very impressed with the Golden Key design (the only
>reason that I don't use one is that it didn't fit between the
>Yamaha riser and the Olympic sight) - its based around a spring,
>but one that you twist, rather than bend.  It's also very sturdy,
>and very  adjustable (lots of set-screws; you'd like it...); you
>can change the tension on the clicker, the position of the clicker, 
>and the amount the thing moves when it goes off, without bending
>the piece of wire (which is steel, rather than that nastly
>brass stuff you get with the Cavalier.)

I understand why you don't like th Cavalier and why you do like the
Golden Key, it sounds cool and fun to play with. But I stand by the
statement that I'd rather shoot a magnetic clicker than a spring 
loaded one. The problem with things being massively adjustable is 
that it also means that every one of those adjustments can come loose!

(This is why my V-bar is not adjustable!)

I like the principle of the Cavalier but I'm back on a Beiter (blade
only no crappy plastic wheel), it works just fine ;-)

BTW The Cavalier no longer comes with a Brass arm, it's now steel also.

>> An archery toy is no toy if you can't take it apart, improve on the
>> design and put it together again!

>Absolutely.  for instance, this weekend, I'm going to de-laminate
>my carbon/ceramic  limbs, glue some bits of 
>broken Diva's (22's work best) inside them
>to make them stiffer, and then duct-tape them back together.  Not!

I don't think limbs count as "toys". Bits of junk that you plaster on
your bow are toys. But I'll rephrase it to any toy with moving parts.
(As stabilisers are toys which you can't really take apart!)

Invariably things aren't as well put together as they might be. You can
usually make things nicer by taking them apart and putting them together
with a little care and maybe some lubricant, washers etc.

I can't believe that you haven't modified your Olympic, or does yours
really not lock up or rattle loose when you don't want it to?

Surely you should be taking a mould of your limbs then melting them down
and then moulding yourself a new set? With a file and some silly putty
you could even turn your mould into Power Recurve limbs ;-)

                                Stretch

PS I found that the ducting tape didn't work too well, evo-stick was
better ;)

--
John Dickson,(aka Stretch)




HomeUsenetArticles*