Target archery equipment performance


From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) Subject: Target archery equipment performance Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 12:35:53 cet A fellow archer asked me to go along to look for a new bow. While we were at the shop, some questions came up I feel haven't a good answer for, at least, not a well founded one. I need to get out more ;-) So I would like to ask what your thoughts are on: The Spigarelli riser. It looks like a nice option for the Hoyt riser, but I heard rumours that it breaks. Anybody experienced this? Hoyt compatible limbs Several manufacturers make limbs according to the Hoyt system. I would like to know more about their performance, especially about the carbon ones. Cast risers vs machined risers I know we have had quite a long thread on riser materials, but I still can't tell what the real difference is between machined and cast risers. Casting errors aside, I cannot think of a real advantage. Adjustable limb pockets What do you think of the laterally adjustable limb pockets? First they came on the PSE Centra, now they also come on the Hoyt Avalon. IMHO limbs, especially the original Hoyt limbs, should not need adjusting. Is there another reason for adjusting the pockets? The new Hoyt Avalon It has considerable more deflex than the Radian. Because of this it draws very smoothly. The grip is the old style full plastic grip. I didn't like the way is was attached to the handle: a bolt through the grip into the handle. Anyone knows more about its performance, e.g. speed compared to the Radian, Eolla, etc? Thanks, Marcelo ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) Newsgroups: rec.sport.archery Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) writes: >So I would like to ask what your thoughts are on: >The Spigarelli riser. > It looks like a nice option for the Hoyt riser, but I heard rumours that > it breaks. Anybody experienced this? Early ones were fine. Later on tho' they seemed to try to make the handle a little lighter (circa early 1993) they reduced the thickness of the side of the limb pocket. This resulted in lots of handles cracking down the limb pocket. The newer models (ie the ones with the tubular clicker extension that screw in the front of the bow) seem a bit more solid and I haven't seen one break. It's a much nicer handle than the TD4+ IMHO, it's better balanced (for me anyway!) >Hoyt compatible limbs > Several manufacturers make limbs according to the Hoyt system. I would > like to know more about their performance, especially about the carbon > ones. Border Limbs are excellent carbon or no carbon, they are smooth and reasonably fast. They shoot very well and are certainly better than Hoyt Glass limbs (although i prefer Hoyt Foam). Prices about 250UKP & 350 UKP. My only concern about the carbon limbs is that the guy who makes them said for years that he'd put carbon into his limbs but it wouldn't make any difference to the way they shot. I'd like to know if he's changed his viewpoint or just wants to sell more limbs. These limbs are also marketed as Spigarelli and sometimes Beman. Most other re-sellers leave the "Border" on the limb. Occasionally you get "not so good" sets, so as with all archery equipment, try before you buy! Only other comment is that I wouldn't shoot them out of a Radian but this is on the basis of ONE bow that I tried......eeek! Others may be better! Stylist Limbs are available in Carbon or Foam Carbon, prices circa 270 and 300 UKP. Shoot very well, always straight, very cheap for what you get, I love them. Some people find them too smooth to draw. I shoot them (all be it in a Stylist handle) and I wouldn't swap them for any set of Hoyt limbs I have met (I've owned two sets of Hoyt Foam limbs and one set of Hoyt glass limbs). I am very biased on this subject ;-) >Cast risers vs machined risers Much has gone before but I know I can get a machined handle that balances nicely for me and I couldn't find a cast handle bow I liked (I don't like Yamaha limbs very much) >Adjustable limb pockets > What do you think of the laterally adjustable limb pockets? Great if you buy a bow from a manufacturer who consistently markets limbs that don't align. Unnecessary if you get a decent set of limbs in the first place. This feature also has scary potential for the novice (probably more so than tiller!) but neither the Centra of Avalon are exactly beginners bows! >The new Hoyt Avalon Some people love it, some people find it faster than the Radian, I've not heard anyone criticise it's performance (although it's UGLY 8-) ) Stretch (all IMHO) John Dickson,(aka Stretch) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: blckaddr1@aol.com (BlckAddr1) Newsgroups: alt.archery Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance >From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) >The new Hoyt Avalon > It has considerable more deflex than the Radian. Because of this it draws > very smoothly. FACT: Actually, the Avalon has precisely the same deflex and overall geometry as a Radian (or a GM for that matter). OPINION: (duly humble and not representative of my employer) This was done for two reasons- One, the original TD Hoyt design still has the best overall combination of accuracy (from the deflex) and speed (from the limb design). Yamaha's Eolla has virtually identical geometry to a Hoyt GM. Two- Compatibility. Otherwise GM limbs would not have the same vertical stability and poundage from riser to riser. claiming all disclaimers ! -George T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 9 Dec 1995 22:06:25 GMT In a previous article, j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) says: >Is it necessary/advisable to have center-fire when shooting a recurve? IMHO >there arrow should point outward a little to allow for the arrow flexing when >leaving the bow. Center shot might cause an less reproducible bending, i.e. >the arrow is not directed to bend in a certain way as much as would be, there >might be some kind of 'hesitation'. Hi Marcelo, PSE's CENTRA has a deep center-fire designed into it so the flectches, feathers,etc will NOT interfer with the arrows path. By having the alignment in perfect tune, all the limb's force is delivered directly to the arrows nock in a straight 'push-off'. It also assures a smooth and even release so that one limb is not slightly more ahead of the other. >Another question I have is concernig torque. If you can adjust the pockets up >to 2 degrees, how does this affect the limb. There is bound to be some twist. >Is this large or am I a bit too concerned :-)? That 2 degree is JUST for that possible limb twist and it amounts to just enough(remember this is an engineered bow by folks who are archers themselves) to allow minor adjustments on good quality limbs in good shape. However, a lesser quality limb or one that is internally fractured can not be corrected AND why should they, in the first place! ::)) >The 'centerfire adjustments, BTW, allow up >>to a 2 degree arch span so it can be set to THAT archer....these bows DO >>have a length of 66,68, or 70 inches and with that reach, an archer must >>be able to insist on the bow being adjustable to HIM/HER AND NOT have to >>worry about that changing every time it is set-up or taken down! > >I completely agree, a bow should adapt to the archer. What I am afraid of is >that people will not know how to adjust the pockets. Has PSE any information >for that? It is a vague area. I would like to know more about it to form a >better opinion, at the moment I am not yet convinced :-) Not to put you off but look at my reply about how to check this important alignment in a previous message...hey, it is even a good way for those 'other' bows too! ::)) Later, my friend, Bruce Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 16:45:57 cet Bruce Smith wrote: >In a previous article, j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) says: > >>Adjustable limb pockets >> What do you think of the laterally adjustable limb pockets? First they >Hi Marcelo, I can't give you a clear answer on other manufactorers BUT I can >tell you why the PSE Centra Bow ( and other PSE bow) has those patented >adjustable limb pockets: The side adjustments allows the archer to align the >tips of each limb to perfectly set them for center-fire AND the other >adjustment allow the archer to set both tiller & weight THEN LOCK these >setting in place so no changes occur as the bow is setup for shooting and >when taken back down after. Is it necessary/advisable to have center-fire when shooting a recurve? IMHO there arrow should point outward a little to allow for the arrow flexing when leaving the bow. Center shot might cause an less reproducible bending, i.e. the arrow is not directed to bend in a certain way as much as would be, there might be some kind of 'hesitation'. Another question I have is concernig torque. If you can adjust the pockets up to 2 degrees, how does this affect the limb. There is bound to be some twist. Is this large or am I a bit too concerned :-)? >The 'centerfire adjustments, BTW, allow up >to a 2 degree arch span so it can be set to THAT archer....these bows DO >have a length of 66,68, or 70 inches and with that reach, an archer must >be able to insist on the bow being adjustable to HIM/HER AND NOT have to >worry about that changing every time it is set-up or taken down! I completely agree, a bow should adapt to the archer. What I am afraid of is that people will not know how to adjust the pockets. Has PSE any information for that? It is a vague area. I would like to know more about it to form a better opinion, at the moment I am not yet convinced :-) >I hope this information helps... Always :-) ! Good shooting Marcelo. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 16:46:30 cet John Dickson (Stretch) wrote: >j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) writes: > >>So I would like to ask what your thoughts are on: > >>The Spigarelli riser. >The newer models (ie the ones with the >tubular clicker extension that screw in the front of the bow) seem a bit >more solid and I haven't seen one break. Are these the ones with the ballbearings pressing on the limb positioning round metal thingy (sorry, can't think of a better word :-)? >>Hoyt compatible limbs >> Several manufacturers make limbs according to the Hoyt system. >My only concern about the carbon limbs is that the guy who makes them >said for years that he'd put carbon into his limbs but it wouldn't make >any difference to the way they shot. I'd like to know if he's changed >his viewpoint or just wants to sell more limbs. You mean Marksman's? >These limbs are also marketed as Spigarelli and sometimes Beman. Most >other re-sellers leave the "Border" on the limb. Border limbs also come on the new 'Emerald Star'. Hope to see it this Sunday 09/12 at the Face-to-Face tournament in Eindhoven. >Stylist Limbs are available in Carbon or Foam Carbon, prices circa 270 >and 300 UKP. Shoot very well, always straight, very cheap for what you >get, I love them. Some people find them too smooth to draw. I got the impression that Stylist limbs are wider than the Hoyt ones. Is this true? >>Adjustable limb pockets >> What do you think of the laterally adjustable limb pockets? >This feature also has scary potential for the novice >(probably more so than tiller!) but neither the Centra of Avalon are >exactly beginners bows! Yes, but there are people who are constantly retuning their bow :-) >>The new Hoyt Avalon > >Some people love it, some people find it faster than the Radian, I've >not heard anyone criticise it's performance (although it's UGLY 8-) ) I think it is a bow you have to get used too...... All IMHO too, Marcelo ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 16:46:41 cet George T. wrote: >>From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) > >>The new Hoyt Avalon >> It has considerable more deflex than the Radian. Because of this it draws >> very smoothly. >FACT: >Actually, the Avalon has precisely the same deflex and overall geometry as >a Radian (or a GM for that matter). I laid them side by side in the shop, and the Avalon had more deflex. I did not check if the weight adjustments were set equally, so I might have seen it wrong. >OPINION: (duly humble and not representative of my employer) > >This was done for two reasons- >Two- Compatibility. Otherwise GM limbs would not have the same vertical >stability and poundage from riser to riser. Agreed, at least there is some standard. >claiming all disclaimers ! and IMHO, Good shooting, Marcelo ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 9 Dec 1995 02:22:48 GMT Reply-To: bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) In a previous article, melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de (Stephan Melin) says: > >|> Adjustable limb pockets >|> What do you think of the laterally adjustable limb pockets? First they >|> came on the PSE Centra, now they also come on the Hoyt Avalon. IMHO >|> limbs, especially the original Hoyt limbs, should not need adjusting. >|> Is there another reason for adjusting the pockets? > >Generally I don't see much use for these things - unless one can't be sure >to get straight limbs in the first place (I'm really nasty ;-). >One will get another two parameters for tuning ;-) Hi Stephan, the reason that the Centra has adjustable limb pocket is that NO bow has perfect 0 position or alignment. Can you be so sure that you are shooting from the 'center-shot' or that your limbs are perfectly aligned to each other for maximum perfomance? Btw: with the PSE design, limbs from different manufactorers can be used. A little sarcastic myself...:), Bruce Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: Sat, 09 Dec 1995 14:12:49 GMT bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) wrote: > Hi Stephan, the reason that the Centra has adjustable limb pocket is that > NO bow has perfect 0 position or alignment. Can you be so sure that you > are shooting from the 'center-shot' or that your limbs are perfectly > aligned to each other for maximum perfomance? Btw: with the PSE design, > limbs from different manufactorers can be used. I was among the first to convert to PSE Centra when it was launched last year. Up till now, I just haven't got the guts to change any settings on the limb pockets. The manual for the bow was only printed on a piece of paper and not much of a help. Are there any literature or manuals that could explain how to check and adjust to get the 'center shot' claimed by PSE? Thanks. M.Wazir Choong ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de (Stephan Melin) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 9 Dec 1995 00:21:33 GMT Reply-To: melin@hlrz24.hlrz.kfa-juelich.de I'm going to be a little sarcastic - so beware.... In article <j.m.muller.52.00A1819C@student.utwente.nl>, j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) writes: <SNIP> |> Cast risers vs machined risers |> I know we have had quite a long thread on riser materials, but I still |> can't tell what the real difference is between machined and cast |> risers. Casting errors aside, I cannot think of a real advantage. Advantages for the manufacturer: - Cheaper to change the design - just reprogram your CNC machine and you are done. - Less hassle with QC - if you were serious about that you would have to X-ray each cast riser. - Label it with the key words: new, improved, .... and charge more. - Introduce a new model every year and convince the customers, that the old design is real crappy in comparison with the new one... Advantages for the archer: - More fashionable - especially if the holes have an odd shape. - No nasty surprises due to casting errors. Less sarcastic: - those risers are generally stiffer than the cast ones - usually they are made somwhat heavier than the cast ones - some (not all) are better balanced than the cast ones |> Adjustable limb pockets |> What do you think of the laterally adjustable limb pockets? First they |> came on the PSE Centra, now they also come on the Hoyt Avalon. IMHO |> limbs, especially the original Hoyt limbs, should not need adjusting. |> Is there another reason for adjusting the pockets? Generally I don't see much use for these things - unless one can't be sure to get straight limbs in the first place (I'm really nasty ;-). One will get another two parameters for tuning ;-) Apart from that I think that unless one has a very unusual setup or shooting style, there is no need to move the limb pockets out of their "zero" position. However if anyone has an idea what this feature is good for, I'd be interested in hearing about (no marketing - hard facts with explanation please)... |> The new Hoyt Avalon |> It has considerable more deflex than the Radian. Because of this it draws |> very smoothly. The grip is the old style full plastic grip. I didn't like |> the way is was attached to the handle: a bolt through the grip into |> the handle. Anyone knows more about its performance, e.g. speed compared |> to the Radian, Eolla, etc? If I'd had to choose between the Avalon and the Radian? - I'd take the Avalon. Personally I have never liked that half grip on the Radian (and the Greenhorn Diamond). If the wooden part doesn't fit perfectly one will have a small edge at the border between the wood and the metal. I don't think that this is very comfortable... Personally I think there should be only one criterion choosing a bow (budget considerations aside): Which bow shoots best for oneself? For some people it could be the Yamaha Eolla (with the new limbs), for others the Hoyt Avalon or the PSE Centra or the Stylist or the Carbofast (I think Tiny Reniers shot one two weeks ago in Bingen - I think the winner of that tournament - another dutch archer - also shot one) or the Greenhorn Diamond or any other bow I didn't mention. Best regards and all to the gold Stephan Melin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de (Stephan Melin) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 9 Dec 1995 00:48:19 GMT Reply-To: melin@hlrz24.hlrz.kfa-juelich.de In article <49is1m$4ub@news.asu.edu>, bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) writes: |> |> In a previous article, j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) says: |> |> > |> >Adjustable limb pockets |> > What do you think of the laterally adjustable limb pockets? First they |> > came on the PSE Centra, now they also come on the Hoyt Avalon. IMHO |> > limbs, especially the original Hoyt limbs, should not need adjusting. |> > Is there another reason for adjusting the pockets? |> |> Hi Marcelo, I can't give you a clear answer on other manufactorers BUT I can |> tell you why the PSE Centra Bow ( and other PSE bow) has those patented |> adjustable limb pockets: The side adjustments allows the archer to align the |> tips of each limb to perfectly set them for center-fire AND the other |> adjustment allow the archer to set both tiller & weight THEN LOCK these |> setting in place so no changes occur as the bow is setup for shooting and |> when taken back down after. The 'centerfire adjustments, BTW, allow up |> to a 2 degree arch span so it can be set to THAT archer....these bows DO |> have a length of 66,68, or 70 inches and with that reach, an archer must |> be able to insist on the bow being adjustable to HIM/HER AND NOT have to |> worry about that changing every time it is set-up or taken down! Hello Bruce, sorry to be a little picky about that subject: I don't understand your reply (probably due to my rather poor knowledge of english...) OK, the tiller & weight adjustment is fine with me - but why would I have to adjust the alignment of the limb tips? I would return any set of limbs which doesn't do that in the first place. (I have seen some rather expensive bows (they were not from PSE btw.) which came with twisted limbs (the tips didn't align) out of the box). I cannot think of a technical reason to do a side adjustment of the limb pockets. I you have one I'd really like to hear about it and how to setup the side adjustment - I don't think they are just there "for fun". Best regards Stephan P.S.: For compounds however I could imagine that the side adjustment might be quite useful - haven't thought much about that so far... Stephan Melin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 9 Dec 1995 21:51:33 GMT Reply-To: bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) In a previous article, wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk (Wazir Choong) says: >bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) wrote: > >> Hi Stephan, the reason that the Centra has adjustable limb pocket is that >> NO bow has perfect 0 position or alignment. Can you be so sure that you >> are shooting from the 'center-shot' or that your limbs are perfectly >> aligned to each other for maximum perfomance? Btw: with the PSE design, >> limbs from different manufactorers can be used. > >I was among the first to convert to PSE Centra when it was launched >last year. Up till now, I just haven't got the guts to change any >settings on the limb pockets. The manual for the bow was only printed >on a piece of paper and not much of a help. Are there any literature >or manuals that could explain how to check and adjust to get the >'center shot' claimed by PSE? > >Thanks. > >M.Wazir Choong | PSE Centra Carbon 68" 44# ACE 570 29" >Univ. of Stirling | ACE stabilisers, Spigarelli V-Bar > | Shibuya RX965, S4 FF 10 strands > Hi Wazir, the pockets are precision tuned at the factory for their laterial adjustments and locked in place. However, there is an easy<?> way for the archer to check to be sure they have NOT be knocked out of alignment: Place the bow, strung, across two EVEN HEIGHT and FLAT surfaces with ONLY the limb tips touching the surfaces. Standing at one end of the bow, sight down to the other end using the tips as the alignment points. You should see a straight line with the riser inbetween AND the string passing directly center over a silver colored hex-head screw. If so, the bow is perfectly aligned; Limbs, pockets, risers! If not, get those instructions out and align them accordingly. BTW: this inspection will let YOU inspect the limbs, under their natural shooting tension, for twisting, weakness, warpage, etc. Bruce Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 11 Dec 1995 10:26:10 GMT j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) writes: >John Dickson (Stretch) wrote: re spigarelli riser: >>The newer models (ie the ones with the >>tubular clicker extension that screw in the front of the bow) seem a bit >>more solid and I haven't seen one break. >Are these the ones with the ballbearings pressing on the limb positioning >round metal thingy (sorry, can't think of a better word :-)? Sorry I'm not sure what you mean and I don't know if I'd know?!?? Anything new basically or very old is fine 8) >>>Hoyt compatible limbs >>> Several manufacturers make limbs according to the Hoyt system. >>My only concern about the carbon limbs is that the guy who makes them >>said for years that he'd put carbon into his limbs but it wouldn't make >>any difference to the way they shot. I'd like to know if he's changed >>his viewpoint or just wants to sell more limbs. >You mean Marksman's? NO this is about Border, the guy was thoroughly opposed to putting carbon in his limbs "it won't do anything" ! I don't know of anyone shooting Marksman Hoyt fitting limbs so I can't comment although I trust Marsman about as far as I could throw a Monarch ;^) >>These limbs are also marketed as Spigarelli and sometimes Beman. Most >>other re-sellers leave the "Border" on the limb. >Border limbs also come on the new 'Emerald Star'. Hope to see it this Sunday >09/12 at the Face-to-Face tournament in Eindhoven. Indeed they do was it pretty? No 8) >>Stylist Limbs are available in Carbon or Foam Carbon, prices circa 270 >>and 300 UKP. Shoot very well, always straight, very cheap for what you >>get, I love them. Some people find them too smooth to draw. >I got the impression that Stylist limbs are wider than the Hoyt ones. Is this >true? I've never directly compared but I'm pretty sure they are a little wider. This is probably what makes them so stable to shoot possibly sacraficing a little speed but personally I've never been convinced. If my Stylist is slow how come I get a 90m sight Mark with an 11" sight extension? My face is not THAT long! >>>The new Hoyt Avalon >> >>Some people love it, some people find it faster than the Radian, I've >>not heard anyone criticise it's performance (although it's UGLY 8-) ) I take that sentence back, it's not ugly, in fact it's rather nice but it certainly isn't photogenic :-) John Dickson,(aka Stretch) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 11 Dec 1995 10:10:38 GMT bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) writes: >Hi Stephan, the reason that the Centra has adjustable limb pocket is that >NO bow has perfect 0 position or alignment. Can you be so sure that you >are shooting from the 'center-shot' or that your limbs are perfectly >aligned to each other for maximum perfomance? Btw: with the PSE design, >limbs from different manufactorers can be used. Everyone else seems to be doubting that there is any value in lateral adjustability unless you're limbs aren't STRAIGHT....ME too. For starters I don't want to shoot off centre shot (although I can) I (as most people I guess) shoot whith the arrow a couple of mm outside centre....paradox, finger release etc etc. Now unless I am misunderstanding 0 position or alignment you are saying that the limbs never match up completely straight to the riser??? SO not necessarily a twisted limb but a sloppy limb fitting. That's not true either as far as is possible to tell my Stylists (all of them) have been totally straight. I'm using Bieter limb guages with the bow resting with the V-bar on a table ie not on the limbs. I know of several other bows which are also straight Radian Foam and Spigarelli Border and I'm sure there are others too (although Yamaha don't seem to have a very good record 8( ) Now if this isn't a *good* method what method are you supposed to use to change the adjustable pockets? I also have concerns (as expressed elsewhere) that shooting with the limbs at an angle to the riser must be loading the limb to different degrees on each side ie you'll stress one side more than the other, then you'll have to adjust the handle more to compensate for the twist?? Sorry I still can't see it, John Dickson,(aka Stretch) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:46:36 GMT In a previous article jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) wrote: > For starters I don't want to shoot off centre shot (although I can) I > (as most people I guess) shoot whith the arrow a couple of mm outside > centre....paradox, finger release etc etc. > > Now unless I am misunderstanding 0 position or alignment you are saying > that the limbs never match up completely straight to the riser??? SO not > necessarily a twisted limb but a sloppy limb fitting. > > That's not true either as far as is possible to tell my Stylists (all of > them) have been totally straight. I'm using Bieter limb guages with the > bow resting with the V-bar on a table ie not on the limbs. I know of > several other bows which are also straight Radian Foam and Spigarelli > Border and I'm sure there are others too (although Yamaha don't seem to > have a very good record 8( ) > > Now if this isn't a *good* method what method are you supposed to use to > change the adjustable pockets? > > I also have concerns (as expressed elsewhere) that shooting with the > limbs at an angle to the riser must be loading the limb to different > degrees on each side ie you'll stress one side more than the other, then > you'll have to adjust the handle more to compensate for the twist?? > > Sorry I still can't see it, I agree with you completely John. There is no way I am going to tweak my bow to give a centre shot when I am shooting with fingers. Paradox? Be it! My main concern may not be over stressing one side of the limb as I believe modern limbs should be able to take a bit of abuse. But the thought of the odd cases of the string slipping down while shooting is something else. The thought of archery manufacturers using the adjustable limb pockets to correct their manufacturing tolerence in making the limbs did cross my mind before though. But, I trust them. Haven't got a choice. After all, it's 80% in the mind. Got to be confident with my gear! By the way John, how did you get a 9 strands string? I've never seen strings with odd number of strands before. M.Wazir Choong ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) Subject: Long: Target archery equipment performance Date: 12 Dec 1995 10:46:18 GMT Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk> writes: <SNIP my bit> >I agree with you completely John. There is no way I am going to tweak >my bow to give a centre shot when I am shooting with fingers. Paradox? >Be it! My main concern may not be over stressing one side of the limb >as I believe modern limbs should be able to take a bit of abuse. I wouldn't bet on that I've seen far too many "hi tec" limbs that are twisted from all of the manufacturers. Putting carbon in a limb does help it but does not prevent twisting even with Foam limbs. >But >the thought of the odd cases of the string slipping down while shooting >is something else. I think that this is highly unlikely since the arc is not sufficiently large to offset the tips to the string groove that far. However, you may find that on certain limbs (ie other manufacturers) if you have the tips at maximum offset then the limb groove will not be aligned correctly and will shred the shank of your string! >The thought of archery manufacturers using the adjustable limb pockets >to correct their manufacturing tolerence in making the limbs did cross >my mind before though. But, I trust them. Haven't got a choice. After >all, it's 80% in the mind. Got to be confident with my gear! As I said before, if I didn't shoot a Stylist I'd shoot an Avalon but I wouldn't touch the horizontal limb adjusts (as long as they were straight in the first place) I'd make sure I got a decent set of limbs. (at 1000 quid you should do!). Personally I hunted around until I found a manufacturer I could trust. >By the way John, how did you get a 9 strands string? I've never seen >strings with odd number of strands before. This is where it gets long! Due to the thicker strands in S4 I had to experiment with the number of strands. 10 strands was close to (but thinner) 20 strand FF. I always shot 18 strand FF. 8 strand S4 is like 16 strand FF. SO 9 strands it is (which is actually about the same thickness as 17 FF). Making them is easy. Assuming that the "top" of your string making jig is where the top loop is and is where you start. Starting at the top left pole wind the S4 onto the jig as normal but instead of taking the S4 all the way round to the top right pole on the last strand, finish on the bottom left pole instead. ie 10 strand Start Finish X X X X X=pole 9 strand Start X X X X Finish The only problem is getting your loops just right to get even tension. I recommend do the top loop carefull ie measure it all out! Before doing the bottom loop check the tension. If it's OK measure it all out and do the bottom loop. If not, start again, there's no point in wasting S4! So far I haven't had any "start agains" and I've made a good few strings this way. The tension is fine. You just have to make sure you put the bit of serving that will be the head of the top loop in EXACTLY the right place. >M.Wazir Choong | PSE Centra Carbon 68" 44# ACE 570 28.5" >Univ. of Stirling | ACE Stabilisers, Spigarelli V-Bar >Just a student!!! | Shibuya RX965, S4 FF 10 strands Bloody Students!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I always wondered what student loans were for! > <<<One of the people with adjustable limb pockets on their bow>>> SUCKER! ;-) John Dickson,(aka Stretch) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Long: Target archery equipment performance Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:42:26 GMT jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) wrote: > Bloody Students!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > I always wondered what student loans were for! Well John, for your information, I got a good deal on my gears. Got them all tax free. My ACE arrow cost me only £96 per dozen inclusive of inserts, points and nocks. And I paid about £540 for my Centra with Carbon limbs. 2 twin ACE rods and long VRS rods was only £60 with custom weights. Now, with or without a student loan, I was going to get it. Won't you? And I was offered a Radian for £560. They were all brand new, hopefully not stolen from the factory! Just a Bloody student!!!!!!! P/S: Sorry John, never saw the reason to buy bows in UK with all the tax and mark up the shops got. I got an Arten arrow straightener for a good £20 less overseas! From: j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 18:00:32 GMT In article <4ah02u$a6f@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) wrote: >bruces@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE J. SMITH) writes: > >> >><SNIP Reasons for lateral adjustion by Bruce> > >Everyone else seems to be doubting that there is any value in lateral >adjustability unless you're limbs aren't STRAIGHT....ME too. >For starters I don't want to shoot off centre shot (although I can) I >(as most people I guess) shoot whith the arrow a couple of mm outside >centre....paradox, finger release etc etc. I am still in doubt, but after seeing the new Yamaha limbs that also have lateral limb adjustion, I started thinking. There is something to be said about lateral adjustment. A bow shot with fingers will have non-uniform loading of the limbs if they are perfectly straight on the bow. There will be some twisting, wether you like it or not. Now, if you somehow compensate for the twisting induced by your fingers, it _could_ be that you improve your shot by loading the arrow in a better way. >Now unless I am misunderstanding 0 position or alignment you are saying >that the limbs never match up completely straight to the riser??? SO not >necessarily a twisted limb but a sloppy limb fitting. A limb should always be straight IMHO. No excuses there, otherwise you end up adjusting for your style _and_ for the limbs errors and you will never see the end of it. One, more or less acceptable, point is with carbon risers. The new Emerald Star by Carbofast has also lateral limb adjustment. The reason they gave was that you cannot get the handle perfectly straight with carbon, so you need some adjusting. Plausible, but good? <SNIP description for for checking limb alignment with Beiter gauges> >Now if this isn't a *good* method what method are you supposed to use to >change the adjustable pockets? I still can't say, probably you will have to fiddle untill you get it right. Perhaps now that Hoyt has adjustable pockets on the Avalon they will bring out a technical bulletin? :-) >I also have concerns (as expressed elsewhere) that shooting with the >limbs at an angle to the riser must be loading the limb to different >degrees on each side ie you'll stress one side more than the other, then >you'll have to adjust the handle more to compensate for the twist?? Good point there, matters could go from bad to worse. Perhaps this is why Yamaha has brought out the new power limbs? See other thread on this, this thread is getting a bit long.... > Sorry I still can't see it, Well, maybe there is something in lateral adjustion, but I don't know yet... All of course IMHO and :-) Good shooting, Marcelo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) Subject: Re: Long: Target archery equipment performance Date: 13 Dec 1995 10:08:46 GMT Wazir Choong <wazir@wazland.demon.co.uk> writes: >Well John, for your information, I got a good deal on my gears. Got >them all tax free. My ACE arrow cost me only #96 per dozen inclusive >of inserts, points and nocks. And I paid about #540 for my Centra with >Carbon limbs. 2 twin ACE rods and long VRS rods was only #60 with >custom weights. Now, with or without a student loan, I was going to >get it. Won't you? And I was offered a Radian for #560. They were all >brand new, hopefully not stolen from the factory! Sounds like I hit a nerve?? ;-) By the way if you are a UK national I wouldn't broadcast the fact that you're importing stuff tax free (in fact I think that applies if you're not a UK national too). You are supposed to pay an import duty of 20% on anything that you bring into the country over and above the "gift" limit. That would add another 112 UKP onto the price of your Centra to make it legal. The prices don't sound too far away from the US prices once you convert to dollars at 1.5 to 1UKP and deduct some Tax so your stuff may be legit. >P/S: Sorry John, never saw the reason to buy bows in UK with all the > tax and mark up the shops got. I got an Arten arrow straightener > for a good #20 less overseas! Personally I've done the "buying abroad" routine and I got a TD4+, Foam limbs, ACE arrows and a set of 2413's for the price of a set of Foam limbs here...but it was a mistake and I wouldn't do it again. I paid a lot of money for a bow I didn't even know if I liked! As for the Arten arrow straightener: 1) They don't work too good on barrelled arrows ;-) 2) Try Arten in Jedburgh it'll save you more than 20 quid. My bow and stabilisers come from the manufacturers so there is no dealer mark up on them at all just manufacturing profit. Stylist Bows - High Quality Joinery Ltd Gemini Stabilisers - Tony Welcer (a very nice Yokshireman) Doinkers - Jim Buchanan (a very nice/knowledgeable Scot) John Dickson,(aka Stretch) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 14 Dec 1995 10:52:17 GMT j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) writes: <Snip Spigy Risers> >I'll give it another try: In the limb pockets, there is a V-groove where the >metal retainer of the limb fits, you basically slide this retainer in the >groove. With the TD4 I found that limb fitting was not so good. Spigarelli has >tried to solve this by pressing two ballbearing on either side of the retainer >with a spring, holding the limb in position. This seems to work fine, but how >this will perform in the long run...? I haven't seen this feature. I don't think it was on the old handles it must(?) be a feature off very new handles. It sounds good to me (although spigy limb pockets were always better than those on the TD4+). I see no reason to suspect it failing. They preform a fairly light task and won't be under much strain. Since the Hoyt limb depends on a single sprung ball detent, and I haven't heard many complain about it, I reckon a double detent should be fine. >Hope this is clear, I notice that English is still a second language to me ;-) Gotcha John Dickson,(aka Stretch) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdickson@festival.ed.ac.uk (John Dickson) Subject: Re: Target archery equipment performance Date: 14 Dec 1995 10:46:32 GMT j.m.muller@student.utwente.nl (Marcelo Muller) writes: >A bow shot with fingers will have non-uniform loading of the limbs if they are >perfectly straight on the bow. There will be some twisting, wether you like it >or not. >Now, if you somehow compensate for the twisting induced by your fingers, it >_could_ be that you improve your shot by loading the arrow in a better way. OK, if this is a valid point and I'm not particularly convinced that the degree would be sufficient to have considerable effect. How do you set it up? You can't possibly see it. Are you telling me that you can feel it? I suppose you can sometimes feel a limb twist as you draw the bow but usually only a drastic twist! Until someone can put down a well explained, logical and PRACTICAL (ie implementable) reason for lateral adjustment I will remain unconvinced. I'm not saying anything against lateral adjust bows, I just feel that using the lateral adjust shouldn't be necessary. >Emerald Star by Carbofast has also lateral limb adjustment. The reason they >gave was that you cannot get the handle perfectly straight with carbon, so you >need some adjusting. Plausible, but good? This brings us full loop to George T's article about Carbon technology in risers. If they can't make the handles perfectly straight then you can be damn sure there will be shooting variations from riser to riser so at the top level can you have two bows setup exactly the same? I think it's a case of we can't make it quite the way we want to so we'll compensate by adding this...it's a fudge! ;-) Not that I'm saying the Emerald isn't a great bow, I don't know. Beware however, it's made in Ireland watch out for any handles made on a Friday afternoon or a Monday morning ;-) >I still can't say, probably you will have to fiddle untill you get it right. >Perhaps now that Hoyt has adjustable pockets on the Avalon they will bring out >a technical bulletin? :-) Maybe Easton will bring out a Tech Bull for Hoyt as Hoyt never seem to do much documentation of there own :-) John Dickson,(aka Stretch)

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