Pavlov's Dog - or that damn "click"


From: melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de (Stephan Melin)
Subject: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 6 Mar 1995 21:51:57 GMT

Here something I do not advise to try out:
Last sunday I wanted to try out one of those portable bow scales (the ones which
are used to determine whether the peak weight of a compound is <= 60 lbs
at FITA tournaments). On the first attempt I was not able to draw my bow right
through the clicker (one has to draw somewhat further). It already said about 
50 lbs (gasp! - I am shooting recurve...) of course I wanted to know how much
above 50 so I tried second time ...

"Remember - if it clicks don't (DON'T!) release" - click - bong... :-{

Result: string went right around the bow (try stringing a recurve the wrong way
around and you'll get the picture), some very bad dings and chips in my riser
section, bow scales "lost" one part (when reparing it I cut myself deeply into
one finger - only the bow hand, I even could continue shooting, besides
a couple of human blood stains on the riser might even serve a purpose
"Aw - y'know that's the last judge who insisted on my 10 only being a 
9..." {BIG EVIL GRIN} ]:-)    )  

And just because I am so much conditioned to the clicker - some people have 
claimed that I actually always shoot through the clicker (they are wrong 
(video camera and grouping confirmed that!) - they just cannot separate the 
click and the "boom" anymore...). Actually the arrow is gone before I 
consciously recognize the "click".

Now my questions:
- Should I try to practise drawing through the clicker without actually 
  shooting? (Probably yes...)
- Should I try to be a little bit slower (read: shoot after my consciousness
  tells me "click")? (Very likely no...)
- Or do I make a funda-mental (pun intended) mistake?

Any comments appreciated

Best regards and good shooting

     Stephan

-- 
Stephan Melin                     | 38# 70" Hoyt GoldMedalist, 32.5" ACE 430
melin@hlrserv.hlrz.kfa-juelich.de | and 32.5" XX75 2216, ACE UHR rod, ACE short
                                  | rods, ACE V-bar extd., AGF V-bar, AGF ZGV,
                                  | 20 string fastflight || '92 Trek 8000
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stephen@psyc.leeds.ac.uk (Stephen Gallimore)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 00:22:46 +0000 (GMT)

j.dickson (mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk) wrote:
: In article f7p@omega.gmd.de, melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de (Stephan Melin) writes:

: [SNIP, ouch!, nasty accident]
:  
: > Now my questions:
: > - Should I try to practise drawing through the clicker without actually 
: >   shooting? (Probably yes...)

: Definitely yes. You have to be aware of the clicker. You must know when it is
: going to drop. However this must all take place in the subconscious. When the
Here is the problem in a nutshell, knowing you are in control but that control
being totally subconscious. One of the major advantages of a conditioned 
clicker reaction is that it takes away the conscious decision to release. 
However if the conscious part of the brain has doubt over what is happening
then there is a big problem, it will get in the way. Drawing through the clicker
in your house, say in front of a mirror or aiming at a cross blue tacked to the
wall has several uses. Firstly it is good exercise, particularly if you 
overdraw and hold for a few seconds. Secondly it gets you used to making the
clicker 'click' without actually releasing, that is you reinforce what you
need to do to actually get through the clicker, but not actually letting go.
This must be combined with shooting at a boss blind and eventually at a target 
in order to get a conditioned but controlled release when you hear and feel
the clicker go. 

I have never had a problem of being able to draw and not release when in
a situation where I cannot let go (e.g. my room!) On the other hand it is
often the case that I don't consciously realise the clicker has gone, but the
shot has and the arrow is in the target. I am only really conscious of the
clicker if something is not correct in my shot setup and I have already spent
too long on the shot because of this.

: > - Should I try to be a little bit slower (read: shoot after my consciousness
: >   tells me "click")? (Very likely no...)

: No NO NO IMHO, I think that would be really unhelpful! Time to think!! Time to
: creep forward, time to build up tension in your drawing hand...time for the
: entire shot to go horribly wrong!

Indeed, never never pause during the shot, it must be one continous action
and the faster and more effort put in the stronger and truer the shot will
be. Remember that the top Koreans take on average less than 2 seconds from the
beginning of the draw until they release.

Should you ever stop the shot and come down ?

Well, this is an intersting one. If you have planted in your mind that you
may have to come down then surprise, surprise you will - that is your
conscious mind will get in the way and possibly cock up a perfectly reasonable
shot. On the other hand will you ever be absolutely certain that you will 
always have a perfect shot setup ? This is nasty, I don't have a good
answer for it. I think that it is a case of confidence and technique,
the more sure you are that your shot setup is as good as you can get it the
less you will hesitiate on the shot and less you will come down - even if
it doesn't feel 100% for some reason. How do you become more confident,
by shooting a large number of arrows with the intent to feel and become
more and more familiar with your shot setup sequence, i.e. blind, at
a boss with no target face on (but maybe a target pin or piece of paper)
and then finally at a target.

Strength, rhythm and not buggering about at full draw seriously improve
your grouping.

stephen

---------
Stephen Gallimore|University of Leeds Driving Simulator|Tel: (+44) 532 335730
                "Never trust a crown green bowler under 30"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jason Ritchie <jaritchie@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 7 Mar 1995 04:44:48 GMT

Stephan Melin, melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de writes:
>- Should I try to practise drawing through the clicker without actually 
>  shooting? (Probably yes...)
>- Should I try to be a little bit slower (read: shoot after my
consciousness
>  tells me "click")? (Very likely no...)
>- Or do I make a funda-mental (pun intended) mistake?

	The only time I have problems with unconscious clicker release is if I
haven't been shooting for a while. I don't release myself to the clicker
until about a half second to a second before the shot, and only when
everything says I'm ready to shoot. If something is wrong I can draw
right through the clicker without shooting. Lately my problems have been
with getting through the clicker and not with my setup.
	One part of what the clicker helped me with initially, was a hesitation
at full draw right before the shot. I would get real tentative and start
collapsing. Now I don't have that problem, but I solved that at the
expense of being totally dependant on the clicker for the last half
second. I've never really had a problem with other people's clickers,
because most of the sensation of the "click" is through my bow hand and
not my ears. But there are always those times when I wonder if it
actually did go all the way through the clicker. :)
	Any comments? My form is by no means perfect and I welcome any
suggestions about how to improve it.

Hang Loose,
Jason Ritchie

<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>
<> Jason Ritchie                 The University of Texas at Austin  <>
<> jaritchie@mail.utexas.edu          Department of Chemistry       <>
<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Reid  Jessica G <reidt@server.uwindsor.ca>
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"... 
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 18:39:58 GMT

From what I've noticed it is essential to learn to draw thru the clicker 
and not release! I have seen two occasions where this happened. During a 
tournament, one of my teammates was in a one arrow (at a time) shoot-off for 
gold. Each time she tried to draw a particular arrow, it fell off the 
rest just after the clicker (probably bent). She had the control to put 
it down three times while under the pressure of timed shooting (she was a 
juniour at the time). Anyway, point being that she would have dry fired 
if she hadn't!
The second incident happened at last year's U.S. Nationals. Another one 
of my teammates was doing the same thing you were, only he had an arrow 
nocked and we were indoors. Needless to say he almost shot someone who 
was standing no less than two feet from him. (No one was injured...except 
maybe his pride mind you.)
So my advice (tho I'm no expert) is to learn to shoot with the clicker 
but without letting it command your shots.

Best of luck!

				Jessica 

				 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ryba@ll.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 9 Mar 1995 14:06:38 GMT

(various amusing/scary stories of automatic clicker response deleted)

   The first summer I brought my new bow home from school (started
shooting as a freshman at CWRU), I took it out to show my brother.  Of
course he was curious so I put it together, nocked an arrow, and
drew...click

   Next thing I remember is a voice in my mind saying, "where's the
arrow?" and an astonished look on my brother's face.  There was a
little pinhole in the curtain, and when I drew it there was 1/4" hole
in the double glazed bedroom window.  We went outside and found my
arrow stripped of fletch about 6-8 feet from the window.  I eventually
trained myself to be less slaved to it, though I generally put down
before I click...I think my current problem is that I try to control
and therefore anticipate drawing though the clicker...negating much of
its good effects.

-- 
Dr. Marty Ryba                     | Of course nothing I say here is official 
   MIT Lincoln Laboratory          |  policy, and Laboratory affililaton is
       ryba@ll.mit.edu             |   for identification purposes only,
                                   |    blah, blah, blah, ...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk (j.dickson)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 9 Mar 1995 10:11:49 GMT

In article 21463@leeds.ac.uk, stephen@psyc.leeds.ac.uk (Stephen Gallimore) writes:

> Drawing through the clicker
> in your house, say in front of a mirror or aiming at a cross blue tacked to the
> wall has several uses.

As long as you don't have plasterboard walls and a nextdoor neighbour! 8) ...oops

> Firstly it is good exercise, particularly if you 
> overdraw and hold for a few seconds.

I'd like to know why you say this? I prefer to go up, prepare the shot, *make*
the shot, reject it because my conscious and subconscious say if you shoot
this arrow into a brick wall it'll cost you 15 smackers and your Dad/landlord/
bankmanager is goinng to go nuts! Then I come down, I don't overdraw.
 
> I have never had a problem of being able to draw and not release when in
> a situation where I cannot let go (e.g. my room!)

You got me with the negatives here!

> Indeed, never never pause during the shot, it must be one continous action
> and the faster and more effort put in the stronger and truer the shot will
> be. Remember that the top Koreans take on average less than 2 seconds from the
> beginning of the draw until they release.

There is a point when you cannot go any faster or you lose control of events.
If someone who usually takes 7 seconds to shoot ties to shoot in 2s they'll
probably spray the target liberally. However, if they try to be more positive
and shoot in say5 or 6 seconds you often get an improvement. They can then work
at getting 5 or 6 down to 3 or 4 etc. Of course a lot of this depends on how you
draw the bow. If you draw the bow slowly or in a roundabout way (for example
to cure some physical problem) you'll never shoot as fast as someone who draws 
the bow straight.

I believe Soo Nyung Kim was 2.7s from start of draw, that was beautiful to watch
her timing was perfect (She is a living god!! 8) She hit the same time every arrow.
> 
> Should you ever stop the shot and come down ?

[SNIP, coming down]

Of course you do! Otherwise you may as well be automatic on the clicker 
(just never draw  an arrow when you're not going to shoot it!) There's
no point in training your subconscious to wave a red flag if you're going
to shoot every arrow. The aforementioned Korean lady certainly used to come
down when the shot wasn't right.

What's important is that you're not thinking "I'll come down on this if
it's not right". It has to be subconscious.

> Strength, rhythm and not buggering about at full draw seriously improve
> your grouping.
> 
Equipment setup, anchor point and consistent loose should just about do
the rest 8) (Assuming one can aim!)

				Stretch

*****************************************************************************
* John Dickson (aka Stretch)   	 	* Stylist Foam/Carbon, 44lbs@32"    *
* Multimedia Guru, 8)			* A/C/E Longrod 24", twins & top    *
* Dept of Medical Physics,		* Rod & Ext, Spiga 30, Shibuya DX   *
* Aberdeen University,			* A/C/E 400's 32"(aka Curtley & Co) *
* Very Cold & Snowy Aberdeen,		*************************************
* Somewhere North of Civilisation.	* FITA Str 1245 Dbl FITA Str 2488   *
*****************************************************************************
			     Always Smiling 8)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk (j.dickson)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 9 Mar 1995 10:35:58 GMT

In article eiv@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu, Jason Ritchie <jaritchie@mail.utexas.edu> writes:

Geez we've finally got something to talk about...thanks Stephan!

[SNIP, Stepans stufff]

This tuff is directed more at Jason than at Stephan. How long have you been 
shooting? It sounds to me like your whole shot process is very conscious
until the last moment and then you go "right, shoot"...click...etc

This is probably OK if you haven't been shooting for too long ie less than
2 years. If you've been shooting longer than this it's time to start
banning some of the *thoughts* that you have as you draw the bow to your
subconscious. Although there's no reason why you shouldn't be trying to
do this if you've been shooting for 2 weeks! 

Once you are comfortable at he beginning of the shot (stance/fingers/bowhand/
shoulder etc are all settled) you should begin the shot, you shouldn't
have to think 

Sub shoot()
Me.liftbow=true
Me.drawbow=true
Me.anchor=true
If me.anchorpoint=false then Comedown
me.aim=true
me.aim=truer
me.aim=true as a very true thing
me.aim=absolutely and very definitely true
Me.makeclick=true
If me.aim=false then Comedown
If me.uncomfortable then Comedown
Me.loose=true
me.followthro' =true

Sub Comedown()
Me.loose=false
me.drawbow=false
me.liftbow=false
STOP

Get my point? Alot of people shoot like this stage by stage checking each 
thing in turn.  You need to be more positive your body will tell you if
something isn't right. Just focus on the gold and don't think *too much*.
From the Easton 1988 Olympics Video Jay Barrs says "I just think about 
finishing the shot" (gross misquote). It gives something for focus but
it's very vague. He's not concentrating on any specific event.

Obviously having never seen you shoot I could be way of target (poor!)
with this and it's all IMHO. What do you think?

				Stretch (The Tummy Rumbler)

*****************************************************************************
* John Dickson (aka Stretch)   	 	* Stylist Foam/Carbon, 44lbs@32"    *
* Multimedia Guru, 8)			* A/C/E Longrod 24", twins & top    *
* Dept of Medical Physics,		* Rod & Ext, Spiga 30, Shibuya DX   *
* Aberdeen University,			* A/C/E 400's 32"(aka Curtley & Co) *
* Very Cold & Snowy Aberdeen,		*************************************
* Somewhere North of Civilisation.	* FITA Str 1245 Dbl FITA Str 2488   *
*****************************************************************************
			     Always Smiling 8)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk (j.dickson)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 8 Mar 1995 17:34:39 GMT

In article f7p@omega.gmd.de, melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de (Stephan Melin) writes:

[SNIP, ouch!, nasty accident]
 
> Now my questions:
> - Should I try to practise drawing through the clicker without actually 
>   shooting? (Probably yes...)

Definitely yes. You have to be aware of the clicker. You must know when it is
going to drop. However this must all take place in the subconscious. When the
clicker drops your body should already be telling your brain that you have set
up the shot properly and you are ready to shoot. Unfortunately, as we all
know, training things into your subconscious takes a long time.

I used to do pretty much the same as you ....click and it's gone...totally
automated. I cured it by spending considerable time aiming ACEs at the wall
of my parents garage (money can be a great trainer of the subconscious!)

I also shot a hell of a lot of arrows blank boss, getting the feel of when the
clicker will going off completely engrained in my thick skull. You must be able
to reject the shot right up to the last minute.

> - Should I try to be a little bit slower (read: shoot after my consciousness
>   tells me "click")? (Very likely no...)

No NO NO IMHO, I think that would be really unhelpful! Time to think!! Time to
creep forward, time to build up tension in your drawing hand...time for the
entire shot to go horribly wrong!

> - Or do I make a funda-mental (pun intended) mistake?

I doubt it's anything that drastic. As you're shooting 50+lbs that probably
does a great deal of damage to your control over the system (Yeah I know
when you've finished writing up...). You do need that control tho'.

				Stretch

*****************************************************************************
* John Dickson (aka Stretch)   	 	* Stylist Foam/Carbon, 44lbs@32"    *
* Multimedia Guru, 8)			* A/C/E Longrod 24", twins & top    *
* Dept of Medical Physics,		* Rod & Ext, Spiga 30, Shibuya DX   *
* Aberdeen University,			* A/C/E 400's 32"(aka Curtley & Co) *
* Very Cold & Snowy Aberdeen,		*************************************
* Somewhere North of Civilisation.	* FITA Str 1245 Dbl FITA Str 2488   *
*****************************************************************************
			     Always Smiling 8)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: 15821tmt@msu.edu (Terry Trier)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 9 Mar 1995 13:12:03 GMT

>
>About 6 weeks later, there was another hole in the door. I thought it
>better not to ask my father about it.

Did you ever find out where that other hole came from?

Terry Trier                     
Entomology Dept.                
Michigan State University               
15821tmt@msu.edu
trier@pilot.msu.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 9 Mar 1995 18:07:29 GMT


In article <3jmur3$ifu@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, 15821tmt@msu.edu (Terry Trier) writes:
|>>About 6 weeks later, there was another hole in the door. I thought it
|>>better not to ask my father about it.
|>
|>Did you ever find out where that other hole came from?

Obviously my father made the hole. I even checked the size. My arrows
(1816) wouldn't fit through the hole. My father shot 1618s at the
time.

I did learn how to control my shots enough so that this never happened
again, and I usually let the bow down before drawing through the
clicker...
-- 
Marty Sasaki            Harvard University           Sasaki Kite Fabrications
sasaki@noc.harvard.edu  Network Services Division    26 Green Street
617-496-4320            10 Ware Street               Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
                        Cambridge, MA 02138-4002     phone/fax: 617-522-8546

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stephen@psyc.leeds.ac.uk (Stephen Gallimore)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 18:15:57 +0000 (GMT)

j.dickson (mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk) wrote:
: > Firstly it is good exercise, particularly if you 
: > overdraw and hold for a few seconds.

: I'd like to know why you say this?
This is an Al Henderson tip, the idea being to get the back muscules used to
going past the point where the clicker drops hence help to stop them locking
up while actually shooting. It is effectively another form of resistive
training and as such if the muscules are to benefit they must be made to
work harder than normal. Henderson actually suggests drawing the arrow through
the clicker and off the arrow rest, not very practicle with todays arrow
lengths :) I am not suggesting that this is a substitute for real resistive 
training (for strength/control) or for shooting blind (for subconscious
reinforcement of the feel of the shot). However I do think it is a useful
substitute when circumstances,weather,lack of time, or whatever prevent you
from doing the real thing.

: > I have never had a problem of being able to draw and not release when in
: > a situation where I cannot let go (e.g. my room!)

: You got me with the negatives here!

Sorry, it was late at night. What I think I was trying to say is that when
I do this sort of practice I am not asking my subconscious to execute a shot,
hence I am not in danger of actually releasing. Instead I ask my subconscious
to execute the setup and draw of a shot, this is not the same command (in my
case). When I am standing in front of a boss and want to shoot an arrow I 
do ask my subconscious to execute a shot and it happens. From your comments
you apparently don't make the distinction between the two different situations.
I am making one rather large assumption here though, that being if we have
two subconscious 'grooves' that share a large number of common elements,
reinforcing one groove will benefit the elements it shares in the other. If
this is not the case then at least I am doing some extra physical training
and I can be pretty sure I am not going to make a hole in the wall ! (Touch
wood).


: to cure some physical problem) you'll never shoot as fast as someone who draws 
: the bow straight.
Indeed, I did not mean to suggest that everybody should or is able to shoot
an arrow in under three seconds. However asking yourself to speed up a little
can help getting into a good rhythm and having a strong positive draw through
the clicker. I find this can be particularly helpful if I find myself
struggling with the clicker part way through a round. Note however I don't
mean you should start rushing the shot or that you should take less care with
the shot setup before you start the draw.


: [SNIP, coming down]

: What's important is that you're not thinking "I'll come down on this if
: it's not right". It has to be subconscious.
This was what I was, rather badly, trying to get over along with the difficulty
of achieving it. I have no problems aborting the process during the setup
of the shot due to something not feeling right or some external influence,
a strong gust of wind for instance. However once I have committed myself to
the shot and started to draw I find it much more difficult to accept messages
indicating there is something going wrong and generally continue. To ignore
the warnings must be a conscious decision, which will affect the shot
anyway so why don't I terminate it then and there..."I've started so I'll
finish" maybe? 

stephen

---------
Stephen Gallimore|University of Leeds Driving Simulator|Tel: (+44) 532 335730
                "Never trust a crown green bowler under 30"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jason Ritchie <jaritchie@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 10 Mar 1995 07:09:16 GMT

j.dickson, mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk writes:
>This tuff is directed more at Jason than at Stephan. How long have you
been 
>shooting? It sounds to me like your whole shot process is very conscious
>until the last moment and then you go "right, shoot"...click...etc

	Well, my pre-draw is very conscious. I don't feel like my draw and shoot
motion is very conscious at all. It's just a feeling of everything being
right, or not at all right. I use the pre-draw to set up all the physical
things I need to do with my body and visualize the shot, then during the
draw all I have to do is finish what I set up in the pre-draw. Does this
make any sense? I pay a lot of attention to my mental game. It's very
important to me to have the same thought process going on during each
shot. By the time I get back to full draw all I'm doing is aiming,
everything else has already been simulated in my mind and set up in the
pre-draw.

>This is probably OK if you haven't been shooting for too long ie less
than
>2 years. If you've been shooting longer than this it's time to start
>banning some of the *thoughts* that you have as you draw the bow to your
>subconscious. Although there's no reason why you shouldn't be trying to
>do this if you've been shooting for 2 weeks! 

	I've been shooting for about a year and a half. I am still finding a lot
of major problems with my form, but I am feeling very good about my
shooting. I guess I don't understand what you mean by banning thoughts.
Are you saying that everything after the pre-draw should be an
unconscious motion? I am very interested in receiving feedback on how I
can improve my mental game, as I consider it to be the most important
part of archery.

Thanks,
Jason

<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>
<> Jason Ritchie                 The University of Texas at Austin  <>
<> jaritchie@mail.utexas.edu          Department of Chemistry       <>
<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk (j.dickson)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 10 Mar 1995 11:30:16 GMT

In article 21722@leeds.ac.uk, stephen@psyc.leeds.ac.uk (Stephen Gallimore) writes:
[SNIP, my bit]
 
> This is an Al Henderson tip, the idea being to get the back muscules used to
> going past the point where the clicker drops hence help to stop them locking
> up while actually shooting. 

[SNIP, some more good reasons etc]

Ok, but isn't this addressing the problem of freezing on full draw (target panic/
overaiming etc etc) rather than shooting when the "click" is heard regardless
of whether you want to shoot or not?

As I shoot arrows 2" over th button and a magnetic flip 1" behind the button
I'd be really struggling to draw the arrow off the rest 8) 35" draw!!!!!!! ;^)
 
[SNIP, too many negatives]

I did indeed believe that that is what you meant! 8)

> Instead I ask my subconscious
> to execute the setup and draw of a shot, this is not the same command (in my
> case). When I am standing in front of a boss and want to shoot an arrow I 
> do ask my subconscious to execute a shot and it happens. From your comments
> you apparently don't make the distinction between the two different situations.

I try not to, although I guess to some extent you know in the first instance
that you won't shoot it but the important thing is that that is not what
I'm thinking in consciously (er god this is getting complicated!). I never send
deliberate conscious signals that say "don't shoot". My only conscious thoughts
are "ready" and "finish the shot" everything else just happens inbetween 
(Well at least I think it does!?!?)

[SNIP, shooting faster]

I know what you mean't, I was just trying to make sure that other people reading
this thread got the whole picture.
> 
[SNIP, coming down]
> 
> However once I have committed myself to
> the shot and started to draw I find it much more difficult to accept messages
> indicating there is something going wrong and generally continue. To ignore
> the warnings must be a conscious decision, which will affect the shot
> anyway so why don't I terminate it then and there..."I've started so I'll
> finish" maybe? 

I guess this is a matter of practice. I don't know how long you've been
shooting. I shot my first arrow 8 years ago and have been training
seriously for archery for 6 years. What you describe reminds me of me
about 4 years ago. The closer I got to finishing the shot, the more I would
try to finish it. (Which included some 20s full draw power struggles "CLick
you SOB!"). Of course sometimes you do this sort of thing and "bang" the
arrow goes slap in the 10 ring and you think "Ha, I was right to keep going",
of course you weren't because the other 9 times it goes red/blue/black/white/
green 8) depending on distance! I think that the longer you shoot the more you
begin to trust those messages. At the moment I'm trying to make a *conscious*
effort to accept all incoming messages and come down. It seems that you have
to have belief in your subconscious being a better judge than your conscious.
I think it is.

All IMHO of course and bloody difficult to express in words! I hope it's
not to boring and unintelligible!

				Stretch

*****************************************************************************
* John Dickson (aka Stretch)   	 	* Stylist Foam/Carbon, 44lbs@32"    *
* Multimedia Guru, 8)			* A/C/E Longrod 24", twins & top    *
* Dept of Medical Physics,		* Rod & Ext, Spiga 30, Shibuya DX   *
* Aberdeen University,			* A/C/E 400's 32"(aka Curtley & Co) *
* Very Cold & Snowy Aberdeen,		*************************************
* Somewhere North of Civilisation.	* FITA Str 1245 Dbl FITA Str 2488   *
*****************************************************************************
			     Always Smiling 8)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wyrus@cs.utexas.edu (Scott Robert Williams)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 10 Mar 1995 13:03:39 -0600

Just my $0.02

I've found that whenever I'm ready to shoot, and "waiting" for the click,
if I find myself thinking "When is this thing going to click?" I need to
let down.  If however, I end up holding for a while, but *not* thinking,
the shot still goes good.  Basically it all comes down to, when I start
thinking, I stop shooting.

Good luck,
To everybody who this applies to...  Have a Great Spring Break!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Williams                                     N.A.A. member - South Region
STAR FITA : 1246          \_____. ._____/                     All-American 1992
wyrus@cs.utexas.edu             \_/           Treasurer - U.T. Longhorn Archers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk (j.dickson)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 13 Mar 1995 10:03:06 GMT

In article 8of@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu, Jason Ritchie <jaritchie@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> 
> 	Well, my pre-draw is very conscious. I don't feel like my draw and shoot
> motion is very conscious at all. It's just a feeling of everything being
> right, or not at all right. I use the pre-draw to set up all the physical
> things I need to do with my body and visualize the shot, then during the
> draw all I have to do is finish what I set up in the pre-draw. Does this
> make any sense?

It sounds good to me! Are you sure you've only been shooting 18 months?? 8)
  
> I've been shooting for about a year and a half. I am still finding a lot
> of major problems with my form, but I am feeling very good about my
> shooting. I guess I don't understand what you mean by banning thoughts.

It doesn't sound like a problem you have. A lot of people will be up on
full draw thinking "Am I aimed" or "is my shoulder set" or "now I need
to make the clicker go". IMHO very few people can get these thoughts
out of their head (ie ban) without replacing them with something. Good
things to consciously think about are "finish the shot" or "follow thro'".
These are far more general and in effect allow your conscious to assist
your subconscious.

> Are you saying that everything after the pre-draw should be an
> unconscious motion?

Of course you are conscious that it's happening but the sequence of
events should be pretty much subconscious. However, you've not been really 
shooting long enough to have that pattern totally engrained. You will
develop it, especially if your style stays approximately the same.

I tried shooting *consciously* this weekend (just to try and see what I do!)
believe me, it wasn't a pretty sight! My only further comments on what you 
say you do are about aiming. If all you're thinking on full draw is "aim" 
then there is a good chance you'll overaim. Aiming is something that definitely
doesn't have to be fully conscious. However this is what happens to me if
I think *aim* it may not be what happens to YOU.

			Stretch (in pain from a weekend of torment!?!)

*****************************************************************************
* John Dickson (aka Stretch)   	 	* Stylist Foam/Carbon, 44lbs@32"    *
* Multimedia Guru, 8)			* A/C/E Longrod 24", twins & top    *
* Dept of Medical Physics,		* Rod & Ext, Spiga 30, Shibuya DX   *
* Aberdeen University,			* A/C/E 400's 32"(aka Curtley & Co) *
* Very Cold & Snowy Aberdeen,		*************************************
* Somewhere North of Civilisation.	* FITA Str 1245 Dbl FITA Str 2488   *
*****************************************************************************
			  See you in Birmingham!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mph476@biomed.abdn.ac.uk (j.dickson)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 13 Mar 1995 10:05:25 GMT

In article b0t@netope.harvard.edu, sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes:
> 
> Obviously my father made the hole. I even checked the size. My arrows
> (1816) wouldn't fit through the hole. My father shot 1618s at the
> time.

 Just as well you didn't shoot 2512's, you would've needed a new door!

				Stretch

*****************************************************************************
* John Dickson (aka Stretch)   	 	* Stylist Foam/Carbon, 44lbs@32"    *
* Multimedia Guru, 8)			* A/C/E Longrod 24", twins & top    *
* Dept of Medical Physics,		* Rod & Ext, Spiga 30, Shibuya DX   *
* Aberdeen University,			* A/C/E 400's 32"(aka Curtley & Co) *
* Very Cold & Snowy Aberdeen,		*************************************
* Somewhere North of Civilisation.	* FITA Str 1245 Dbl FITA Str 2488   *
*****************************************************************************
			     Always Smiling 8)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: angus@harlqn.co.uk (Angus Duggan)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:27:09 GMT

>> However once I have committed myself to
>> the shot and started to draw I find it much more difficult to accept messages
>> indicating there is something going wrong and generally continue. To ignore
>> the warnings must be a conscious decision, which will affect the shot
>> anyway so why don't I terminate it then and there..."I've started so I'll
>> finish" maybe? 

To add another personal note and opinion to this, I haven't had the problem
of shooting on the click regardless of whether it feels right for some
time. When the clicker goes, I subconciously either make the decision to shoot
or not. If there's a brick wall 5 feet in front of me, my subconcious always
(so far :-) tells me that it's a bad idea to shoot, so I come down. If the
decision becomes concious, because of mental distraction or other factors,
then I'm in trouble, because the rest of the release and shot becomes
concious. Unfortunately, I can't remember how I changed from conciously
committing to the shot early to subconciously committing to the shot late, I
gues it is just practice.

>begin to trust those messages. At the moment I'm trying to make a *conscious*
>effort to accept all incoming messages and come down. It seems that you have
>to have belief in your subconscious being a better judge than your conscious.
>I think it is.

I think the subconcious mind is certainly able to make a far more consistent
decision than the concious mind, and since archery is all about consistency,
this is the way to do it (IMHO).

The problem, of course, is that you have to be confident that you know what
"correct form" is for yourself before you let go to the subconcious messages,
otherwise you'll come down on most arrows, and get very tired very quickly.

a.
--
Angus Duggan, Harlequin Ltd., Barrington Hall   | 40lb 68" Hoyt Radian, 29.5"
Barrington, Cambridge CB2 5RG, U.K.		| ACE 520, ACE UHR rod & twins,
INET: angus@harlequin.co.uk			| J-bar, 20 str Fastflite.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: melin@cm5cofis.gmd.de (Stephan Melin)
Subject: Re: Pavlovs dog - or that damn "click"...
Date: 13 Mar 1995 21:14:12 GMT

Well, first of all thanks for all the replies - that's the way I like the
discussions on alt.archery: a friendly exchange of ideas about archery.
Too bad I had to mess up the finsh on my riser section that badly...
I just hope this thread has not been completely boring for the 
traditionalists or the wheelies ;-) 

Now back to the subject:
Last weekend I tried _NOT_ to shoot (read: draw through the clicker and come 
down). Of course I did not try John's approach - otherwise Easton's stock would
have been skyrocketed already...
After about 1 hour of click - bang - "Damn!" (sorry) someone mentioned that I 
was developing a slight forward loose :-) - that has been the first time I was
happy about that!
After some more practise, I am now able to draw through the clicker and
come down - although very hastily, slowly (in a controled fashion) would 
be IMO better, but I am still working on it. At least I can now prepare 
the shot, draw and shortly before the click someone gives the command "Don't
shoot!", draw through the clicker and come down.

For those who have similar problems:
Completely concentrating on not shooting IMHO might not be a very good idea:
You don't want to mess up you release, so therefore shoot some arrows
inbetween. I guess that shooting one out of three (or two out of six) arrows
ought to be enough to keep me from developing a forward release - especially 
since it takes a long time to get the release back in shape (*)

Best regards and good shooting

   Stephan


(*) There is a way of shooting which IMHO almost guarantees a decent release.
   However I am practising this for only about 8 weeks so far and 
   therefore I cannot draw any final conclusions...
   I "borrowed" this idea after watching "The winning edge" and the 1988 
   olympics video - that should be a suffcient hint if you are curious.
   Otherwise stay tuned in a couple of weeks...

-- 
Stephan Melin                     | 38# 70" Hoyt GoldMedalist, 32.5" ACE 430
melin@hlrserv.hlrz.kfa-juelich.de | and 32.5" XX75 2216, ACE UHR rod, ACE short
Phone: (49)2461/61-2318  (office) | rods, ACE V-bar extd., AGF V-bar, AGF ZGV,
Fax: (49)2461/61-2430    (office) | 20 string fastflight || '92 Trek 8000
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

HomeUsenetArticlesArticles