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 Post subject: Aiming Study
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 15:02 GMT 
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Measurement of on-target-trajectories in Olympic archery
Edelmann-Nusser,* M. Gruber and A. Gollhofer
Department of Sports Science, Otto-von-Guericke University,
Magdeburg, Germany,Department of Sports Science, University
of Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany

The range of motion of a recurve bow during aiming and
releasing the shot is very small. Therefore on-target-trajectories
are used. To measure the on-target-trajectories of bows
a system originally designed for gun shooting was modified.
The system can be fitted onto the archers own personal bow.
Fifteen highly skilled archers of the German National Teams
of women and men participated in the study. Two intraindividual
typical strategies of aiming could be found out:
eleven archers try to hold the target on sight for at least 2 s
whereas four archers tend to ‘slide’ on the target and release
the shot at once when the target is on sight. For the so
called ‘hold boxes’ during aiming, the amplitudes and the
standard deviations of the motion in the last 10 ms were
smaller and the scores were better if the archers ‘hold the
target on sight’ this strategy can be assumed to be the better
one.


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 Post subject: Re: Aiming Study
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 20:35 GMT 

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 08:42 GMT
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Location: California
JoeTapley wrote:
eleven archers try to hold the target on sight for at least 2 s
whereas four archers tend to ‘slide’ on the target and release
the shot at once when the target is on sight.


Alas, they measured Germans instead of Koreans.

There are some top rifle shooters who have an "approach" to the target and break the shot when they first expect an X, but they have triggers, and such things seem difficult with a clicker.

But from what I can tell the surprise break technique is the most common:

http://www.scatt.com/eng/faq.htm#Dynamic

kgk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 22:29 GMT 
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Quote:
Alas, they measured Germans instead of Koreans.

Can we get away from thinking that, because Koreans are successful, their techniques are necessarily best :x ? They are part of an overall method that will not suit every individual

Quote:
this strategy can be assumed to be the better
one.
I don't like "assumed"! I would have thought this very much depends on how the brain reacts to the perception of the target, and communicates the instruction to release. Presumably, the floaters had reasons for floating, as did the holders (OK, it may simply be the way they were taught). What the extract tells me is that floating might be a more difficult technique to master, perhaps impossible to the same extent. But, as a strategy, it may suit individuals.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 23:54 GMT 

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 08:42 GMT
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oswyntail wrote:
Quote:
Alas, they measured Germans instead of Koreans.

Can we get away from thinking that, because Koreans are successful, their techniques are necessarily best :x ? They are part of an overall method that will not suit every individual.


No, "we" cannot get away from thinking that, because the Koreans are by far the best, and smart countries are getting their own Korean coaches. :)

kgk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 00:15 GMT 
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I mostly agree with kgk, while there is more than one way to shoot a bow over 1300, there seems to be one 'way' that has more success than the others. And also, if someone is going to shoot 1000 arrows a day, don't you think they would also have enough time to figure out the most efficient way their body can do that?

But when we talk of the korean way we don't mean it just as 'their' way. Many before shot in a very similar efficient style. Two that have stayed in my mind are Pace and Hallard. Watch a shot sequence of them shooting, then watch a korean, very very similar... The koreans just took what people did best and taught it to the kids, now they win nearly everything. Just like japanese car syndrome, they copy all the best bits of forign cars and now Lexus can out Mercedes Mercedes... :lol:

In my opinion of course.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 01:47 GMT 
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Location: UK Nottingham/Essex
talk about korean coach, i have a question.

Does India have a korean coach?

They are doing so so so so soososososo so WELL in recently year, even not many people talking about them.

Barry,
I think u know japanese car really well ;)
But I know someone in somewhere never believe TOYOTA is japanese. :twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 01:55 GMT 

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 08:42 GMT
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Location: California
will_uk wrote:
Does India have a korean coach?


Yes, I believe so.

kgk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 01:58 GMT 
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Barry C wrote:
The koreans just took what people did best and taught it to the kids, now they win nearly everything.


They did a little more than that. Their culture allows them to do things that wouldn't fly in other countries.

But I agree with oswyntail, what the koreans do it's "korean".

Quote:
I don't like "assumed"! I would have thought this very much depends on how the brain reacts to the perception of the target, and communicates the instruction to release. Presumably, the floaters had reasons for floating, as did the holders (OK, it may simply be the way they were taught). What the extract tells me is that floating might be a more difficult technique to master, perhaps impossible to the same extent. But, as a strategy, it may suit individuals.


On the other hand, if the floating method worked for these archers, you'd expect a standard deviation as small as the holders. If floating is more difficult to master than holding also a strike against it. Perhaps would be better to hold even if it's not quite your thing, since you'll master it.

Whole paper please?



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 04:50 GMT 
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Location: Melbourne AUS
will_uk wrote:
talk about korean coach, i have a question.

Does India have a korean coach?

They are doing so so so so soososososo so WELL in recently year, even not many people talking about them.

Yep, in fact there were about 10 KOrean coaches at the Worlds, and all their archers are shooting well and breaking their country's National records.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 07:37 GMT 
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Guess it would have helped to include a link :!:

http://www.sport.uni-freiburg.de/abteil ... RCHERY.pdf

What I found surprising was that the archers were streadier in the vertical plane (despite having to hold up all the hardware) than they were in the horizontal plane.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 08:25 GMT 

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 08:42 GMT
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JoeTapley wrote:
http://www.sport.uni-freiburg.de/abteilungen/motorik/Projekte/Entwicklung%20von/themen/AN%20ANALYSIS%20OF%20THE%20HOLDING%20AREA%20IN%20OLYMPIC%20ARCHERY.pdf

What I found surprising was that the archers were streadier in the vertical plane (despite having to hold up all the hardware) than they were in the horizontal plane.


Or

http://tinyurl.com/ay24r

I can tell that these people are smart because they mounted a laser to help configure their Noptel---and thereby save their sanity. :)

For some reason I have more horizontal than vertical movement, too; I'm not sure why, although I think it somehow pertains to my tricep and not feeling "comfortable" about locking my elbow to 100%?

kgk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 08:46 GMT 
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Location: Abingdon, UK
JoeTapley wrote:
What I found surprising was that the archers were streadier in the vertical plane (despite having to hold up all the hardware) than they were in the horizontal plane.

I think you'll find that with most top archers. IIRC, very few shots went low at the Olympic Games. Then again, very few shots left the gold either...
I quite frequently get groups the height of the 10 ring and spread out to the 7. It probably has to do with the fact that there are more variables that will push the shot from side-to-side than up and down. With a good anchor and reference, dropping the bow hand is about the only way a shot can go low. Whereas, a canted bow, inconsistent hand pressure, drawing around the chin more or just simply wind will all push the shot to the side.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 08:49 GMT 
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Location: Carrickfergus, UK
JoeTapley wrote:
Guess it would have helped to include a link :!:

http://www.sport.uni-freiburg.de/abteil ... RCHERY.pdf

What I found surprising was that the archers were streadier in the vertical plane (despite having to hold up all the hardware) than they were in the horizontal plane.

For some reason that doesn't surprise me :)
It's a more straightforward thing to hold a bow up (and you have the mass steadying you in the vertical plane). The sideways steadiness is dependent on many more (less well understood - by most people, at least) factors.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:49 GMT 
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Quote:
I quite frequently get groups the height of the 10 ring and spread out to the 7


The study was about aiming. Agreed shooting horizontal spread sensitivity higher than vertical.

Could be it's the effect of expanding through the clicker causing the horizontal movement?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 13:21 GMT 
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Kimchi anyone?



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