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 Post subject: How do you push/pull/expand?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 05:28 GMT 

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 07:37 GMT
Posts: 545
Location: Northern California, USA
OK everyone, I'd like to hear how you visualize your push, pull, or expansion throughout the shot. Also, if you have any specific exercises I'd love to hear about those as well. Mike Gerard had some very interesting thoughts, and I'm curious as to what works for others.

Here's what I strive to do: As I come through the clicker, I continue to work on drawing side scapular movement towards the spine, while extending my bowarm side simultaneously towards the target. If all goes well, then the shot goes off in a fairly consistent time interval and I continue my movement in the followthrough phase. If not, then I try to let down as opposed to sweating through the clicker.

Obviously there's a bit of routine before this expansion happens that I've chosen to omit.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 09:03 GMT 
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Location: Halifax, UK
I'd better start with a caveat: I've only recently started experimenting with pushing, so I don't know whether I'm doing it right. But that's never stopped me offering my opinion before! :twisted:

I do it pretty much the way you describe. I just draw with a solid bow arm until the back tension feels right on the drawing side, then move my bow-side scapula forward until the clicker goes off. Being careful not to move my wrist or elbow, since grinding these under full draw is a short-cut to arthritis.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:45 GMT 

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 15:09 GMT
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Location: Boston
I more or less expand through my shot the same way and when it works, it feels great and everything seems to click. One thing different is that my shoulder blades are acutally moving towards the spine, while my bow arm is moving towards the target using the muscles underneath my bow shoulders (ala my interpretation of when I asked how do you keep your bow shoulder in place) as my medium high drawing elbow is moving in same plane as the string back. So I'm keeping good tension to keep from my bow shoulder from rising (which has always been the hardest thing to control when I shoot) while I push towards the target. Vittrio made a good visualization point of trying to put the pin and push it into the gold on the target. I've started to do that and it's been working great. When I execute this movement with a high level of self confidence, everything seems to just click.

One thing that I think about is making sure I don't stop movement, so sometimes I utter a mantra in my head things like "pull" or "expand" over and over or something to that nature so I'm consciously executing one portion of my shot but letting my subconscious figure out the rest on it's own. I'm still working on this form though, I used to just raise my arms up, and just pull until I get through the clicker but this wasn't helping because of my bow shoulder issues.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 09:14 GMT 
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I have no idea how you people push. In my experience, my bow arm is locked in place and there is absolutely no room to push. Its just there and I can forget about it.

Then I draw back with my arm, then use back tension to pull through the clicker zone.

Probably works on the same principles, but I'm pulling instead of pushing. Thoughts?



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 13:37 GMT 

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2003 14:52 GMT
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Location: Lisbon - Portugal
Leighton,
I noticed that when I set on the clicker and then shift my focus to the gold my bow arm just seems to be locked in place and it is extremely hard to get through by pushing, even though I leave just a couple of mm under the clicker.

On the other hand, if I keep my focus on the clicker (that is, not shifting focus to the gold, which means I only do it, or rather did, in practice) I could easily stop with a mm or two to go, wait any reasonable time, and then start the movement again and get through the clicker with several mm to spare.

Probably either a change on back tension when shifting sight from clicker to gold or a psychological thing not to be able to do the trick on the first instance.

Anyway, I gave up on this technique after spending some months trying to improve on it, as there is no coach around to help me who understands the idea behind setting on the clicker and I just don't get enough practice anyway, so I'd rather have fun. No dammage to my poor scores, either - I might think otherwise if I was in the 1300s league.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 20:40 GMT 
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Got it. Back in the day I used to have some play with my bow arm. Not anymore, it just locks into place with no room to manuevre.

I have since thought more about my shot sequence and realize that I am constantly "pushing" with my bow arm in order to keep it locked. Then I "pull" with my back muscles to get through the clicker.

I suppose its just a matter of where we do our pushing. :P



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 02:23 GMT 
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Location: Melbourne AUS
The push method is not a good way of doing things as you can not do it the same averytime. The front bowarm should be a set aiming point and used 100% for aiming only. This will get rid of any left-right throw away shots you may get.
Works the same with compound or recurve.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 03:54 GMT 
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Marcus wrote:
The push method is not a good way of doing things as you can not do it the same averytime. The front bowarm should be a set aiming point and used 100% for aiming only. This will get rid of any left-right throw away shots you may get.
Works the same with compound or recurve.


always a shame to hear absolutism in archery advice.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:12 GMT 

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2003 14:52 GMT
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Location: Lisbon - Portugal
Marcus
you must give that advice to Vittorio Frangilli, Michele and the others of the same school of thought (and practice). They probably don't know how many points they are loosing for that wrong technique! :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 13:45 GMT 
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Location: Melbourne AUS
Sigh, where's a Korean coach when you need one. ;)

I have been told by 2 world class coaches that push/pull is bad as it never gives a consistant front arm location and will lead to left-right shots. This makes an awful lot of sense and I welcome counter-arguements. Given that no one has shot 1440 yet we can only assume no one has got it 100% right yet either. It's also safe to assume that some have been doing it for so long that they can outshoot us mere mortals. Doesn't make it right however for Average Joe Archer. (just like shooting bent arm on compound works for a small percentage of shooters, doesn't mean it should be taught) nor it may not be wrong.
Only through debate do we learn.

But hey if you want to throw names about Cuddihy, Barnes and Fairweather don't push/pull either and they shoot some pretty nifty scores. ;)

Do what you like, I don't care, but I would think alternative opinions would have been welcome. :roll:



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 15:17 GMT 

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 15:09 GMT
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Acutally pushing for me leads to high or low shots (over pushing leading to a high but right in line with center shot), but never left - right shots (that's more due to my anchor point inconsistency and alignment more). And we're not talking about pushing with all your might to get through the clicker, but a controlled movement of expansion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 15:19 GMT 

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2003 14:52 GMT
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Location: Lisbon - Portugal
Marcus,
You may feel misunderstood, but you did seem pretty cathegorical in your previous post :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 16:27 GMT 
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To paraphrase Galilleo: "Nonetheless, it doesn't move"....

Marcus wrote:
Sigh, where's a Korean coach when you need one. ;)
But hey if you want to throw names about Cuddihy, Barnes and Fairweather don't push/pull either and they shoot some pretty nifty scores. ;)


In my admittedly limited understanding of , let's call it, "the Korean Method", which I've been a disciple of for several years, after Hyo Jung Kim taught me a little, Guy Krueger a good deal more, and Don Rabska totally, totally convinced me by sterling example of the merits, one DOES push. It's just a matter of proportions - if he tries to push too much I suspect the archer gets exactly what you describe - variation at the target. It's more of a mental image of reaching (as others up here have already mentioned) that results in a slight motion of the stabilizer tip (and everything else attached to it) toward the target. This motion may be so slight that it is merely the absence of shrinking of the human limb by stress due to bow compression at the end of the execution, by strengthening the bow arm sufficently.

I have trouble believing that after Australia hired one of the best Korean coaches ever, who was given absolute free hand and a huge long-term budget (kudos to Chris M.!) to develop archers the way he wanted, that you think these archers are not, in their own Koreanly subtle way, pushing.

Watch Cuddihy, Fairweather, or even any of the Korean archers, and quite simply ask: Do their bowstrings move on their chest? I recall watching Fairweather on tape at ARCO for this very reason. His did not move, they were quality shots and he was reaching enough to offset his pull by an equal amount.

If it does not move during the final steps of execution then I would suggest any pulling motion by the back half is being met by an equal amount of resistance in the form of reaching or pushing in the front half.

Labels may be confusing: "Pushing" or "Reaching" is a common way of explaining it, creating a better mental image, and it is important. Some call it "expansion", I think.

Perhaps we could both agree that if the pushing is so profound or pronounced that the archer's arm moves side to side, or down, then that is too much pushing :D :D :?:

From another perspective:
Looking at the string arm assembly right at the end of the execution, approaching click. In order to move the string back through click by pulling alone, can the elbow travel in a perfectly straight line away from the bow? I would say that it can't, and that the lever system requires muscles working that are far from "in line" with the arrow to the target.

So the arc the elbow travels in results in a change in the direction of the forces affecting the bow. I feel that one way to reduce the amount those vector forces will influence the bow is by the reach. A good proper balance of reach/push and pull could cut in half the variations caused by the pulling elbow.

Gee, can anyone ask the Korean who just shot 1405 whether she visualizes reaching toward the target, stiffening the muscles under the bow shoulder, as part of her execution ?

:lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 18:38 GMT 
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Location: Southern Illinois, USA
Quote:
How do you push/pull/expand?



Just enough to get the point through the clicker... :lol:


Seriously, I find it hard to believe that there is ONE answer for everyone. Look at the PGA tour. How many different ways are there to swing a club fergawdsake!!!! If everyone had to look just like Tiger or Adam Scott in order to be successful, then we wouldn't see so many different folks winning, would we? Surely Jim Furyk would have never, ever won the Open and would have been kicked out of a "Korean" style program years ago for his loopy swing.

C'mon folks, there are lots of ways to skin this cat, and we are all physically different, so just learn what works for YOU and practice perfectly.

John.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 22:05 GMT 
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Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 22:36 GMT
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Location: Lago Vista, TX
John - in the table listed in a link about the Korean shooting a 1405, there are 6 or 8 archers listed in her table of results. The LOWEST of those was something like a 1368. How many male or female archers in the US or the UK can register even that low score of those recurve women?

One size may not fit all, but it seems to me that some things make more sense than others in general.

We in the US are scratching our heads trying to figure out HOW to adequately compete not just in the Olympics but also in the Grand Prix events, and we frankly aren't doing that great. If some relative novice is up here lurking, trying to get better, which of the messages in this thread do you, as an Olympian archer, want him to take to heart?

Besides, you were at that seminar of Guy Krueger's - do you not push just a little yourself?


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